2,000 Greater & Lesser Mysteries/2,000 Greater and Lesser Mysteries.iso/ufo/paranet/mys02374.txt

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                Info-ParaNet Newsletters   Volume I  Number 377

                           Thursday, March 14th 1991

Today's Topics:

                            Re: Statements of accepta
                              Re: File disclaimers
                                 Re: Old writers
                                 Re: Lazar end.
                                     (none)
                           RE: Paranet Newsletter 376
                                     (none)
                               Incinerated Village
                                    Interview
                           Re: Resonant Gravity Coils
                             Gravitational Magnetism
                                 Relativity Woes
                                      SS433
                                      arui

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Rick Moen)
Subject: Re: Statements of accepta
Date: 10 Mar 91 09:57:42 GMT


 JT>      Oh. I thought that since _you_ made the claim that Klass,
 JT>  Sheaffer and Oberg _actually had made_ definitive statements,
 JT>  that you also had some _evidence or ready information_ on
 JT>  which to base that claim.  Sorry, _my mistake_.  (I will,
 JT>  however, bear this in mind in evaluating your other claims.)

Your mistaken assumption is that I posted the reference (to Jim
Speiser, not to you) with the aim of convincing you.  People who
have a long history of going around posing insinuative rhetorical
questions, replete with highly selective and distortive exceprts
from my postings elsewhere just aren't high up on my
to-be-persuaded list.  Jim, on the other hand, very likely has
already seen the aforementioned statements -- he's a broad and
active reader -- and my intent was just to remind him.

However, I was nonetheless quite glad to refer you to the best
possible sources for the answers to your questions.  You're
welcome, I think.

 JT>  I will indeed try to contact the three above individuals.

I doubt you'll find that there's much percentage in it.  Not many
facile opportunities for cheap shots are likely to result, and
you might have to expend a little effort along the way.

Regards,
Rick M.



--
Rick Moen - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Rick Moen)
Subject: Re: File disclaimers
Date: 10 Mar 91 09:57:46 GMT


 JT>      Maybe I wasn't sufficiently clear. I asked what _you_
 JT>  meant by "of their kind", information which, at least
 JT>  according to my way of thinking, cannot be found in the
 JT>  original source material.

I referred to the "kind" to which the original poster, to whom I
was responding in ASK_UFO, had for his own reasons consigned
them.  Had you included a modicum of the context of the
discussion, that would have been clear.  The point of my
partially-quoted posting, the point that you carefully snipped
out, was to state my opinion that the other fellow's highly
unfavourable view about Cooper's material was not a good reason
to delete it from one's board, and that _if_ one held such a view
-- -=which I do not=- -- that there are always less radical
options than deletion.

For some reason, you saw fit to completely cut out this opinion
of mine, the entire reason for -- and point of -- my message.

 RM>  I fully disagree.  Sysops have no obligation to justify or
 RM>  explain their placement of download files on their own systems.
 RM>  If I were moved to post such an explanation, it would be as
 RM>  follows:  "Because I damned well felt like it."  That should
 RM>  more than cover it.

 JT>      I suppose that this depends on what the sysop decides to
 JT>  be his "obligation". If one's desire is to present a rational,
 JT>  objective, and comprehensive overview of a subject, then it is
 JT>  imperative that rational, objective, and comprehensive
 JT>  criteria for data presented be made available. If, on the
 JT>  other hand, one chooses to ignore this obligation and run the
 JT>  risk (or at least arouse the suspicion) of presenting
 JT>  half-truths, faulty lines of reasoning, and
 JT>  conclusions-by-decree, then "because I damned well felt like
 JT>  it" will indeed suffice.

If you want to go around and sermonise to some flock of sysops
concerning their download areas, be my guest, but please forgive
my absenting myself from your denomination.  I get tired of
cranls trying to tell sysops what to do with their own property,
and have low tolerance.

In point of fact, in any event, I was trying to suggest (to the
other fellow) some less drastic alternatives to his proposal to
delete the Cooper files.  By contrast, on my own board, I don't
post disclaimers, nor do I delete text files, nor have I ever
considered doing so.  I maintain this wide-open policy on
my BBS for what I regard as an eminently good reason:  Yep,
because I damned well feel like it.

Regards,
Rick M.



--
Rick Moen - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Rick Moen)
Subject: Re: Old writers
Date: 10 Mar 91 09:57:56 GMT


 JT>  (On second thought, it doesn't sound OK. I don't think you
 JT>  can lead anyone to enlightenment without making him or her
 JT>  think!)

Ah, but some people, after being led to enlightenment, still
don't know where they are.

Regards,
Rick M.



--
Rick Moen - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Rick Moen)
Subject: Re: Lazar end.
Date: 10 Mar 91 09:58:08 GMT


 CM> Hi Don.  While you're checking on the W-2, why not spend a
 CM> couple of dimes checking out Rick Moen?

 CM> I mean, do any of us REALLY know if HE exists?  A committee of
 CM> hydrophobic Mensa misfits could be writing this stuff, you know.

Ha, found out at last.  ;-)   Let me just wipe that foam off
my mouth....

Best Regards,
Rick M.



--
Rick Moen - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: ecn.purdue.edu!lush
Subject: (none)
Date: 12 Mar 91 20:19:57 GMT

From: [e-mail] (Gregory B Lush)


There were a couple inappropriate criticisms of the
America West Publications catalog which I feel the need to address.

From: [e-mail] (Korac MacArthur)

Korac and others after him referred to the Phoenix Journals as 'anti-semitic.'
This is an often-used term and just as often misused term.  Let's start
with some definitions.

(Webster's 7th Collegiate Dictionary, Copyright (C) 1963 by Merriam-Webster,
Inc.  No part of this information may be copied or reprinted without the
express written consent of the publisher.)

Sem.ite \'sem-.i-t\ n [F se`mite, fr. Sem Shem, fr. LL, fr. Gk Se-m, fr.
   Heb. (XShe-m 1: a member of any of the peoples descended from Shem 2: a
   member of any of a group of peoples of southwestern Asia chiefly
   represented now by the Jews and Arabs but in ancient times also by the
   Babylonians, Assyrians, Aramaeans, Canaanites, and Phoenicians

Note that to be a Semite is not to be Jewish, but to be a descenedent
of Shem, the eldest son of Noah.  Thus, many Arabs and Jews have common
blood in them so one should not equate 'anti-semitism' with dislike of Jews.

Next:

Zi.on \'zi--*n\ n [Zion, citadel in Palestine which was the nucleus of
   Jerusalem, fr. ME XSion, fr. OE, fr. LL, fr. Heb Ssub-dot>i-yo-n 1a: the
   Jewish people : ISRAEL 1b: the Jewish homeland that is symbolic of Judaism
   or of Jewish national aspiration 1c: the ideal nation or society envisaged
   by Judaism 2: HEAVEN 3: UTOPIA

Zi.on.ism \'zi--*-.niz-*m\ \-n*st\ \.zi--*-'nis-tik\ n : a theory, plan, or
   movement for setting up a Jewish national or religious community in
   Palestine - Zi.on.ist ajor ;n

It is important to understand that the current leadership of the nation Israel
is made up mostly of Zionists.  Further, these Zionists are not Semites.
Arthur Koestler has written a book called 'The Thirteenth Tribe', which
is a reference to the twelve tribes of israel.  (I did not capitalize israel
there because 'Israel' in the Old Testament refers to ones who are "Chosen
of God', not to the nation of Israel.)  In this book Koestler describes a
people with a mixture of Finn, Turk, and Mongol descent called the
Khazars who in the 3rd-10th century ruled the region where the Volga enters
the Caspian Sea (there is region called Kazakstan there now).  They were
with Attila, the Hun, originally.  The Khazars were one of three powerful
empires; the others officially claimed the Muslim and Christian religions,
respectively, as their national religion.

Under pressure to adopt a state religion and
in order to not antagonize the other two powers, the Khazars decided to
officially adopt Judaism as their official religion.  The Khazars were
eventually defeated by the Rus (Russians) and were scattered, most
migrating west to what is now Eastern Europe.  Koestler proves through
population studies and biological studies that the present leadership
of Israel is made up of people of Khazar descent.  Thus, if one is
critical of Israeli leadership, one is not anti-Semitic, but simply
critical of Israeli leadership.  If one hates Jews and Arabs descendended
from Shem in general without regard to individuals, one is anti-semitic.

Further, if the Phoenix Journals were critical of Zionists just because
they are Zionists, that would be as equally inappropriate as being
anti-Semitic would be.  However, the Phoenix Journals are critical
of people who are, in Hatonn's opinion (backed up by verifiable information),
working toward control/slavery of other peoples.  If true, this leaves
the Planners open to criticism.

Now it seems as though I'm going to a lot of trouble to worry about
semantics and definitions.  However, whenever the many writers/researchers
try to outline the incredible world influence of the Zionists,
they are immediately called anti-Semitic.  It is a reflex reaction, and it
is incorrect.  This is one thing that the many writers/researchers typically
point to as a manifestation of this Zionist influence, but not proof of it.

An example is our former Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff George Brown,
who was Chief during the end of the Ford presidency.  He warned law students
at a talk at Duke University of the serious danger to America that unlimited
support of Israel entails.  He called Israel and her armed forces
'a burden' to the United States.  For these types of comments based on his
obviously well-informed opinion, General Brown was immediately labeled
anti-Semitic and forced to apologize to the President.  Editorials across the
nation demanded General Brown's resignation because of these
and similar statements.

The Phoenix Journals discuss plans for a world takeover which are in
place and operating now.  They identify many of the 'players' as
being these Khazar/Zionists.  They do not criticize Jews and they do
not say that all Zionists are actively participating.  Within the
writings they continually distinguish between Zionists and Jews and even
feel that the true Jews will suffer the most from Zionist plans.
To call the Phoenix Journals or the authors thereof anti-Semitic is
simply wrong.

The same can be said of the charge of 'Gay-bashing' which was made through
the appearance of similarities to Lyndon LaRouche's ideals.  The Phoenix
Journals do talk about gays.  Hatonn says over and over that he has no
opinion on a person choosing one of the same gender to love and share a
life with.  Never are the writings critical of an individual in any manner
solely because that person is gay.  Criticism in the Phoenix Journals is
earned the same way praise is earned--by ones works.
He is critical of the acts of intercourse of gays just as
he is critical of the preoccupation with sex by heterosexuals.  He says
it is damaging to the person because in excess it creates imbalance, just
as eating too much of something or too little of something else creates
imbalance in the physical body.  Any imbalance in your body makes it
weaker and thus less able to fight intrusions/disease.

Finally, in the time that I have been reading the Journals, I have been exposed
to many New Age books.  I now understand why many have quickly associated
these works with the New Age books you have seen.  I can only tell you that
these are different.  I'm sure that you feel that this is the same
garbage, but it would cost a lot money for you to probe it to yourself
and I don't sense that you feel the odds are very good that you will
be convinced.  I will cease in spouting about them, and I hope that
you will keep the address in case something should convince you that
they might have some merit.

This is not the forum for much of what I have written in this post, but
I didn't feel that I could leave those charges without addressing them.

Greg Lush





--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: boulder!uunet.UU.NET!verifone!verifone.com!ed_l1
Subject: RE: Paranet Newsletter 376
Date: 13 Mar 91 02:19:58 GMT

From: 'Ed L'Esperance - TechPubs HNL - [phone]' <verifone.com!ed_l1>

With reference to the 'red lights.'

I recall in my boyhood in Greenwich, Connecticut, my friends and I
used to sneak out to the beach late at night and watch the sky.

Several evenings in late summer we observed pairs of red lights, and
an occassional single, moving across our area.  They seemed to at
first move slowly, then as they got farther away they moved faster and
faster till they disappeared out over Long Island Sound.

Of course, they turned out to be temperature-inversion reflections
of auto taillights in this case, on a nearby one-way street.
Other lights I have seen in the sky aren't so easy to explain: like
the 'satellite' we were once watching that changed course by about 45
degrees.  But who knows?  We always must consider the mundane
explanations alongside the speculative.

[e-mail] :: UUCP%'[e-mail]'
Ed L'Esperance
'What we say is less important than what we communicate.'






--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Subject: (none)
Date: 13 Mar 91 03:20:00 GMT


 > From: [e-mail] (Gregory B Lush)
 > Finally, in the time that I have been reading the Journals, I have been
 > exposed
 > to many New Age books.  I now understand why many have quickly
 > associated
 > these works with the New Age books you have seen.  I can only tell you
 > that
 > these are different.  I'm sure that you feel that this is the same
 > garbage, but it would cost a lot money for you to probe it to yourself
 > and I don't sense that you feel the odds are very good that you will
 > be convinced.  I will cease in spouting about them, and I hope that
 > you will keep the address in case something should convince you that
 > they might have some merit.
 >
 > This is not the forum for much of what I have written in this post, but
 > I didn't feel that I could leave those charges without addressing them.

Thank you for posting your article. Regarding your above statement, I wish to
say that it is quite the contrary.  This is the forum to address these issues
and any other issues that anyone cares to in a responsible manner - no ad
hominum attacks.  I appreciate your desire to bring this forth and generate
discussion designed to promote discovery and understanding about all aspects
that make up the paranormal phenomenon.

Mike

--
Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Subject: Incinerated Village
Date: 13 Mar 91 07:23:00 GMT


 To: astro.dnet.ge.com!CARR


Hi Paul.

 > It seems to me that the Kirimukuyu incident could be explained
 > by your usual bloodthirsty types dropping Napalm from planes
 > or
 > choppers.  Africa has had its share of this sort of thing.
 > Did
 > I miss something?

Kenya was quite peaceful in 1952.  Frankly, if I were to suspect a
human agency (which I really don't) I'd suspect the witnesses.  A
feud with the village, maybe over the marriage taking place.  A
raid, a massacre, a big fire to cover up the evidence.  According
to Jacques Vallee, the reports of lights & beams in the sky came
from several neighboring villages, however.  The mystery has never
been solved.

 > As to the disappearance of the British regiment, I would like
 > to offer one > possible explanation ... Their commander tried to take
 > advantage of the fog bank to try and go around behind his objective.
 > They got lost, got behind enemy lines, and were wiped out.

Interesting, but the regiments on either side would have
encountered them had they demarched.  Also, if the regiment mixed
it up with the Turks and got wiped out, it's news to the Turks...

 > The British suffered immense casualties in that campaign, and
 > not every single man killed could be accounted for.  Does that hold
 > water?

Well, the Gallipoli/Dardanelles campaign was an unqualified
disaster.  Along with the Anzio landing and the Italian Campaign,
it was an amazingly stupid idea, even for Winston Churchill.
Looking for the "soft underbelly" of the Turks in Gallipoli (or the
Axis in the Italian Alps) was really absurd.  (T.E. Lawrence found
EXACTLY where it was two years later, though).

But that's one of the reasons that the disappearance was so
strange. It would have been highly unusual for the commander to
divert the regiment from its planned line of march.  It might have
been a good idea, but BEF commanders had good ideas whipped out of
them before Gen. Allenby came along in 1917.

Plus the narrow beaches of Anatolia and Gallipoli are surmounted by
rugged, rocky cliffs and hills that force attackers to be good rock
climbers and then be stupid enough to march inland through narrow
defiles.  It's a defender's dream and the allies knew it.  The
Allies had much better success on the Western Front (where they
could actually gain 500 yards or more for 10,000 lives!) than they
did in the Dardanelles.  They never got more than 5 miles inland in
Turkey.

So the Brits couldn't have found themselves behind the Turks
without running into a bunch of dug-in, tenacious defenders first.
And even a determined assault wouldn't have resulted in 100%
casualties -- even if it came close (the Canadian Corp in Ypres
suffered over 60% casualties and up to 95% in some regiments) there
would have been survivors/prisoners.

No, it's really strange.  Nothing is observed and dissected more
methodically than a battle.  And the pointless slaughter of
100,000 men in the course of the Gallipoli fiasco was watched VERY
closely -- so that EVERYTHING could be hushed up.  But for all
that, the regiment vanished completely.  Weird, or what?

Best,
  Clark

PS -- Sorry if I ran on, but my special interest for many years was
WWI. Hmmmm.  Maybe they became prisoners of the infamous German
cruiser Goeben?

--
Clark Matthews - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (John Sulik)
Subject: Interview
Date: 13 Mar 91 06:46:23 GMT

Hello All!  I am doing a research paper on UFOs and am required to do
an interview.  Any one interested please contact me via email.


--
John Sulik - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Subject: Re: Resonant Gravity Coils
Date: 10 Mar 91 20:56:00 GMT

>   electromagnet with hollow tubular windings that are made
> from a
>   heat-proof ceramic material,' with the windings filled
> with a molten
>   metal.


Hi Roger.  Actually, Behrent's idea is not a new one.  However, using molten
metal as a dielectric would be self-defeating.

Possibly it is a coolant.  This is really conventional technology, these
days.  The Russians use molten sodium for reactor cooling in many of their
sub-based, ship-based and spacecraft reactors.

Interestingly, the Russians have many embarassing experiences very similar
to "metal-ejecting UFO" sitings.  When an overload condition develops, it is
necessary to vent -- dump, squirt -- the overheated sodium into the
environment.  It's messy, dangerous and highly radioactive.

Of course, the magnesium Behrent studied was completely un-radioactive and
extraordinarily pure.  But recall that it was burning as it fell and as it
floated on the water, so it must have been superheated.  Of course,
Magnesium burns hot enough that water can not extinguish it -- it simply
breaks up the water molecules and uses their oxygen to keep on burning.

Liquid sodium accidents, I imagine, smell like a huge radioactive rotten
egg.  They also probably kill anyone who can smell them, eventually.

Best,
  Clark

--
Clark Matthews - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Subject: Gravitational Magnetism
Date: 13 Mar 91 06:54:00 GMT

TO: violet.berkeley.edu!chalmers


Hello John.  Long time no type!

 >          Robert Forward, a physicist specializing
 > in gravitational theory and 'hard SF' writer (Dragon's Egg and
 > sequel), has described an antigravity device consisting of a
 > toroidal coil with an ID of about 100 meters. If the mass
 > of a neutron star were to flow through the windings of the
 > coil every millisecond, the magnetic analog of the
 > gravitational
 > field ('protational' or gravitational magnetic field) would
 > neutralize
 > gravity in the center of the coil.

Whoa!!!  How do I fit a neutron star in my garage?!

Seriously, this experiment sounds over-the-top, except perhaps as a
thought experiment.  I'm reminded of Charlie Chaplin's "globe dance"
in The Great Dictator, however...

I wonder, what does Robert Forward conceive gravity to be?  Does he
think it's an elemental physical force?  If so, better get a bigger
garage and a bigger framed portrait of Einstein.

Or would he entertain the notion that gravity is a resultant of
other forces?  In which case size (100 meters, neutron star, etc.)
might be completely irrelevant.  And a small bust of Neils Bohr or
Schroedinger or Herzfeld might do.

It might be interesting to consider gravity as the resultant of mass
and time.

Best,
  Clark

--
Clark Matthews - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: shemtaia.weeg.uiowa.edu!jrblack
Subject: Relativity Woes
Date: 14 Mar 91 14:27:17 GMT

From: James Roger Black <[e-mail]>

General Relativity, Einstein's magnum opus, may be in trouble, according
to the latest issue of Science News (9 March 91, p. 148).

In a supercomputer simulation conducted by Stuart L. Shapiro and Saul A.
Teukolsky of Cornell University, the gravitational collapse of large,
nonspherical particle clouds in space resulted in the the formation of
what are known as 'naked singularities'--points of infinite mass and
density without a surrounding black hole to insulate them from the outside
universe.  This violates the 'cosmic censorship' rule which states that
naked singularities cannot exist in the real world.

This represents a potential disaster for general relativity, according
to Shapiro, because it results in a situation in which relativity theory
fails to model the physical world.

'If cosmic censorship really goes out the window ... then one would need
to revise the mathematical equations for relativistic gravity,' Shapiro
says.

For further information, see Shapiro and Teukolsky's article in the
25 February 91 issue of Physical Review Letters.




--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: shemtaia.weeg.uiowa.edu!jrblack
Subject: SS433
Date: 14 Mar 91 14:28:01 GMT

From: James Roger Black <[e-mail]>

There has been some discussion here of SS433, a rather bizarre
astronomical object which has been dubbed 'the star that's both coming
and going'.

SS-433 was discovered (more or less) in 1978.  It has a strange
spectrum which changes dramatically from one day to the next; part of
it is blue-shifted (i.e., coming toward us), part of it is red-shifted
(i.e., going away from us) and part of it is standing still.  Even
worse, it appears that the parts that were going away change direction
after a time and start heading toward us, while the parts that were
coming toward us start going away.

The most likely model is a binary star system in which electromagnetic
interactions between the two stars cause gigantic jets of hot gas to be
ripped away from one of the stars and hurled off into interstellar
space at tremendous speed.  The jets are going in opposite directions
(hence the simultaneous red and blue shifts); and because the stars are
revolving around a common center of gravity, they gradually exchange
positions relative to earth over time.  It's sort of like a cosmic
water sprinkler.

Scientific American had a long, detailed article on SS433 in its
October 1980 issue; other articles were published in Sky and Telescope
(8/81), Science News (24 January 81 and 11 July 81), and Industrial
Research (6/80).  Omni had a one-page summary and update in September
1986 (p. 30).

Claims have been made that there's more to this than the official line
indicates.  If anybody has the details, I'd like to hear more about it,
including some published sources if possible.

--
Roger Black, University of Iowa, Iowa City
INTERNET:  [e-mail]




--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: afglsc.span.nasa.gov!webb
Subject: arui
Date: 14 Mar 91 16:25:21 GMT

From: [e-mail]

I can address two of Mike Corbin's questions regarding astronomical items.
1) SS433 is a peculiar star system in which one object possesses twin
rotating radiating light beams similar to a pulsar. The system is now
relatively well understood and would NOT be a good place for life, so as
far as I know it has no bearing on UFOs.

2) Halley's comet: The light outburst from Halley so far from the sun is
unusual. Brian Marsden is a recognized comet expert and if he says it is
hard to explain I believe him. Most comet activity occurs when the comet is
close to the sun, whose radiation causes the comet to outgas from its icy
and dirty core.

With regard to the solar flare postings, what does this have to do with
UFOs? Periodic energetic flare outbursts are not uncommon, especially at
this phase of the solar cycle. Maybe you were worried about possible
outages of Paranet communications.

On a separate matter, I was intrigued by Roger Black's reference in
Vallee's book 'Confrontations' to Behrendt's paper. What the hey is "Annals
of Ufological Research Advances' ?!! Has anyone ever heard of this obscure
publication? Is it an English-language periodical?

Dave Webb




********To have your comments in the next issue, send electronic mail to********
                      'infopara' at the following address:

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******************The**End**of**Info-ParaNet**Newsletter************************


                Info-ParaNet Newsletters   Volume I  Number 378

                           Saturday, March 16th 1991

Today's Topics:

                             Hatonn and the Pleiades
                               Re: Relativity Woes
                                     (none)
                                    Interview
                                      Arui
                                    Linguists
                                      Arui
                                 Halley's Comet
                              Forward/transporters

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: well.sf.ca.us!ddrasin
Subject: Hatonn and the Pleiades
Date: 15 Mar 91 18:20:57 GMT

From: [e-mail] (Dan Drasin)

Just some quick replies to some points raised during the past few
weeks:


+ Hatonn and the America West 'Phoenix Journals'

I don't claim to be the world's foremost authority on this, but for
what it's worth...

Hatonn (Please, not 'Hatoon!') has been channeled for years by the
Rock Creek Research group in Louisville, KY. This entity has never
claimed to be Pleiadean, and has presented itself in a consistently
respectful, humble and spiritually uplifting fashion. The 'Hatonn'
presented in the America West 'Phoenix Journals' may in fact be
either a crude fabrication or an 'astral impostor,' whose manner and
'vibe' seems diametrically opposed to that of the original
'Hatonn.'  The journals give some justification for this (that
people 'now have to be jogged out of their complacency') but it
doesn't compute from a number of standpoints; too much to get into
here.

The Phoenix Journals are not likely to have been channeled, or
received via a shortwave radio: While they admit that much of what
they present has appeared elsewhere, much of it survives verbatim
WITH TYPOGRAPHICAL AND GRAMMATICAL ERRORS INTACT. The violations of
copyright alone (they are apparently being sued by more than one
party) should be enough to raise a red flag or two: a spiritual
teacher will almost never counsel violating the laws of the land. At
any rate, the publishers openly solicit contributions of information
from their readers, many of which apparently turn up as
'transmitted' material later on. The preponderance of the Phoenix
Journal entitled 'SPACE-GATE: THE VEIL REMOVED' was taken
word-for-word from papers by Bill Cooper and others. As of last
year, several people named as supporting the Phoenix Journals have
gone on public record as repudiating any connection or association
with them, and I understand that Cooper himself is bringing suit.

What useful information there may be in these journals (and there is
undoubtedly some) seems strongly overbalanced by the amount of
what appears to be mis-and dis-information mixed in helter-skelter,
and above all by the simplistic and hysterical tone in which they
are delivered. Information out of context is useless; information in
*this* kind of context is *less* than useless because it strongly
discourages intelligent people from taking it seriously.

The only rationalization I can conceive of for presenting important
information in this way is that its amateurish, ranting quality may
prevent its being taken as a serious threat by 'the authorities.'
However, if the publishers are to be believed, they are already
under almost constant harrassment by the 'authorities' anyway.

It has been my experience that groups that dwell on their own
persecution (real or imagined) tend to have some serious emotional
problems at the core.


+ Pleiades being 400 light-years away

Distance is relative to the system of physics through which you
perceive it. Current physics recognizes that conventional notions of
space and time are transcended by demonstrable superluminal
(faster-than-light) connections. The concept of a 'warp drive,' while
certainly a long way from being realized, is not at odds with the
picture of the universe that is presently unfolding at the leading
edges of physics. Those who believe that 'what we know is all there
is to know' should remember that powered flight was generally
regarded as an impossiblity less than a century ago.


Dan Drasin
ddrasin@well




--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Mark Plutowski)
Subject: Re: Relativity Woes
Date: 15 Mar 91 21:16:53 GMT


This is regarding the recent message, included here:

----- Begin Included Message -----

+From: James Roger Black <[e-mail]>
+Subject: Relativity Woes
+Date: 14 Mar 91 14:27:17 GMT
+
+General Relativity, Einstein's magnum opus, may be in trouble, according
+to the latest issue of Science News (9 March 91, p. 148).
+
+In a supercomputer simulation conducted by Stuart L. Shapiro and Saul A.
+Teukolsky of Cornell University, the gravitational collapse of large,
+nonspherical particle clouds in space resulted in the the formation of
+what are known as 'naked singularities'--points of infinite mass and
+density without a surrounding black hole to insulate them from the outside
+universe.  This violates the 'cosmic censorship' rule which states that
+naked singularities cannot exist in the real world.
+
+This represents a potential disaster for general relativity, according
+to Shapiro, because it results in a situation in which relativity theory
+fails to model the physical world.
+
+'If cosmic censorship really goes out the window ... then one would need
+to revise the mathematical equations for relativistic gravity,' Shapiro
+says.
+
+For further information, see Shapiro and Teukolsky's article in the
+25 February 91 issue of Physical Review Letters.
+
----- End Included Message -----

My understanding is that it was more of a disaster for Roger Penrose's theory,
which implied the connection between Einstein's theory and the cosmic censorship
conjecture.  Also, even if Penrose is correct, and the simulations do give an
accurate model of reality, then (I gather from what I have read) researchers
are still split on the impact of this evidence upon Einstein's theory.
At worst, it seems it will only put a chink in a branch of it, and will not
affect any fundamental aspects of the theory.

-=-=
M.E. Plutowski,  [e-mail]

UCSD,  Computer Science and Engineering 0114
9500 Gilman Drive
La Jolla, California 92093-0114
=





--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: ecn.purdue.edu![e-mail]
Subject: (none)
Date: 16 Mar 91 02:34:09 GMT

From: [e-mail] (Gregory B Lush)

I was asked a couple questions about a previous posting.

= +From Greg Lush  ([e-mail])
= +the scribe (I did NOT call her a channelor nor a psychic) has been
=
= Nor did you explain the difference, even when asked.

Jim, I talked to a friend who introduced me to these Journals.  He
says that any definition he comes up with to describe channelling
fully describes the interaction between Hatonn and the scribe.

He felt that the reason that Hatonn made such a big point (note
I said 'big' point, not "important" point) about this NOT being
channelling is that he didn't want people associating this material
with New Age material.  I now understand that.  I apologize for
misleading you on that.  My friend describes channelling as the
bringing forth of information from other dimensions.  Some channellors
are better that others, and that ability would be a measure of how
well the 'channelor' can focus on one frequency without allowing other
frequencies to interfere or cloud.  Hatonn criticizes others because they
have let their ego get in the way and so they interpret the information
and do not transcribe directly.  He says that HIS scribe has not yet
exhibited such faults.  Of course, if one were trying to get people
to buy ones books, it makes sense to say 'We are the only ones doing
it right!'  I don't know how to address that except to say you must
decide for yourself.


=  +I heard Dan Rather quote Boris Yeltzin once as saying,
=  +'the KGB has beam weapons that can stop my heart.'

=  Can you give any reference for this quote?  It's very interesting if true,
=  but it needs to be tracked down.  (I have also heard [from an unidentified
=  source!] that the CIA can cancel out your brain waves.  I don't consider it
=  technically possible, especially in the manner it was described [via a
=  'bug' in a telephone receiver.])  Perhaps you could cause nervous system
=  effects with some sort of radio waves.  I'm not a physicist, or a
=  biologist.  But I suspect it would have to be very strong to work from any
=  sort of distance.

I can only say that I heard that on CBS News in the last year and that it
was before the Persian Gulf Thing.  It had to be after I learned of this
material which would be in June.  I don't know if I tried to find a
reference to it in the New York Times the following day or not.
I do know that I heard it.  Sorry for the haziness.

The beam weapons the Pleidians describe use extremely low frequency
1-60 Hz waves.  There are old studies now being made public and new
studies being done which show relationships between EM fields from high-
voltage cables and transfer stations and cancer and birth defects.
There are two references to this that I can give you.
The first is in IEEE Spectrum August 1990.
It references a New Yorker 3-part series which was published 'a year
before' June 1990.  It is a long series which shows, among other
things, that heart rates can be slowed in these fields.

IEEE Spectrum:

   However, when the exposure pattern (of 60-Hz fields) is one of
   switching on and off every 15 seconds, alertness and reaction time
   worsened notably.  Some individuals seemed much more sensitive than
   others.  MRI (Midwest Research Institute) has also reported slight
   changes in the rate of heartbeat, with the degree of response again
   varying with the subject.  The institute is now screening for
   sensitive subjects for further study.

The IEEE Spectrum article also mentions how certain frequencies affect
certain organs and frequencies nearby (they compare 55 and 60 Hz) will
not affect the same organ.  These phenomena seem very hard to study.

These principles are the same as a beam weapon except less concentrated.

Greg





--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Subject: Interview
Date: 15 Mar 91 01:11:00 GMT


 > Hello All!  I am doing a research paper on UFOs and am required to do
 > an interview.  Any one interested please contact me via email.

Welcome to ParaNet, John.  Could you elaborate on your project a bit more?
Perhaps we could help you find that someone.

Michael Corbin
Director

--
Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Subject: Arui
Date: 15 Mar 91 01:34:00 GMT


  > From: [e-mail]
 > With regard to the solar flare postings, what does this have to do with
 > UFOs? Periodic energetic flare outbursts are not uncommon, especially at
 > this phase of the solar cycle. Maybe you were worried about possible
 > outages of Paranet communications.

Cross posted to the wrong conference by mistake.  Sorry for the unnecessary
bandwidth.

Mike

--
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UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (sm)
Subject: Linguists
Date: 15 Mar 91 05:34:00 GMT

ParaNet is in need of linguists who can volunteer their time to translate and
transcribe foreign documents and articles.  At the present time, we are in
need of French and Italian linguists.  Please reply via this conference or to
one of the following addresses:

ParaNet @ FidoNet 1:104/422
Paranet @ Internet - [e-mail]

Thank you.

Michael Corbin
Director

--
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UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: ParaNet(sm)[e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (John Burke)
Subject: Arui
Date: 15 Mar 91 07:01:00 GMT


Dave Webb writes:

 >
 > On a separate matter, I was intrigued by Roger Black's
 > reference in
 > Vallee's book 'Confrontations' to Behrendt's paper. What
 > the hey is "Annals
 > of Ufological Research Advances' ?!! Has anyone ever heard
 > of this obscure
 > publication? Is it an English-language periodical?
 >
 > Dave Webb

 Dave:
          Ken Behrendt's A.U.R.A. is a 12-page newsletter which
he publishes out of Florida.  Single issues are available from
Arcturus Books at $5 each.  It seems to be concerned with the
reverse-engineering of UFOs, based on whatever can be gleaned
from documented observations.
                                     --  John

--
John Burke - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Kurt Lochner)
Subject: Halley's Comet
Date: 10 Mar 91 19:42:31 GMT


 > I am curious among our scientific users if this
 > phenomena related to Halley's Comet in the previous
 > post is a normal feature of a comet?
 >
No, not considering that the ejection would have been
much more likely with closer proximity to the Sun.
It usually takes tremendous heat input for a system
of frozen liquids surrounding a rocky core to become
super-heated enough to cause clouds/ejected materials.

What might have provided the path for this gaseous
escape/ejecta could have been the weakening or fracture
of the frozen outer shell of this comet, perhaps due
to gravitational stress or collision with an asteriod.

Past this, I would only be guessing at the distances
and forces involved, none of which have been mentioned.

--
Kurt Lochner - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: violet.berkeley.edu!chalmers
Subject: Forward/transporters
Date: 16 Mar 91 10:57:44 GMT

From: [e-mail] (John H. Chalmers Jr.)

Clark: Good to hear from you again. Although I logon
every morning, I haven't posted much recently as the topics
have been ones about which I have little insight or knowledge.
Forward is a straight General Relativitist as far as I know. At
one time he made a generous offer to do the tensor computations
for other SF authors using GR/SR in their stories.
 As for the recent Naked Singularity computation, I'd like
to see how the story develops in the next few months as other
theorists check the assumptions and results.
 I've appended a computation I did on the bandwidth requirements
for a matter transmitter. Somebody pointed out that I should double
my numbers to include the 3 components of momentum (as well as space),
but what's a factor of 2 in 10 exp 30 or 45? Also, I haven't the
faintest idea how a scanner could measure velocity.

 The question recently was raised about
3D scanning, presumably for matter transmission, i.e., the Star Trek
Transporter. The idea intrigued me as I remembered a statement
by Arthur C. Clarke in talk given years ago at UC, Berkeley
that the bandwidth would be prohibitively high.  So,I decided to
try to estimate it.
 Let us assume we want to transport a human being
weighing 60 kilos (about 132 lbs, rather average).
Humans are mostly water and as a first approximation,
let's assume humans are 100% water so we can more easily calculate
the number of atoms in 60 kg's of flesh. Water has a MW of 18
(O +2 H) so there are 1000/18 moles of water per kilo. There are
6.023 x10 exp 23 molecules per mole (Avogadro's number);
ergo there are 60 x 1000/18 x 6.023 x 3 atoms in a 60 kg human body.
This number is 6.023 x 10 exp 27 atoms.  Identifying each one in
 a real body as to atomic number and isotope would require 8 bits.
This means  we need 8 x 6.023 x 10 exp 27 or 4.818 x 10 exp 28 bits
just to enumerate the atoms.
 In order not to break chemical bonds and destroy DNA, proteins,
etc. or create reactive fragments, we need to know the location of each
atom to picometer resolution (chemical bonds are typically 100's of pm)
in 3D dimensions. It takes 40 bits (2 exp 40) to express 10 exp12.
Therefore we need 3 x 40 x 4.818 x 10 exp 28 bits of information to
locate every atom in a body. This number is 5.782 x 10 exp 30 bits.
However, these atoms are not static, many are taking part in
chemical reactions. Chemical reactions occur on time scales of tens of
femtoseconds ( the much slower observed rates are due to diffusion,
fraction with enough energy to react at given temperatures, etc.).
Therefore to correctly determine all the chemical species, we need
to scan the body in 10 exp -15 seconds, which yields a bandwidth of
5.782 x 10 exp 45 bits/sec as a worst case estimation.
 One might improve on this number my assuming that the small
fraction of atoms actually undergoing chemical change at any instant
is irrelevant or one might freeze the body to near absolute zero to
stop chemical reactions, diffusion, circulation, etc.
In these cases, one might gain 15 or 20 orders of magnitude in the
bandwidth requirements, if long scan times are acceptable.
The small percent of heavier elements in the body would make a minor
adjustment to the bandwidth.  Data compression schemes might be
of value in some cases; a boule of isotopically pure semiconductor
grade silicon would  have no dislocations, so not much info other
than the dimensions might have to be sent.
 How would one actually do the scanning? I have no idea
NMR imaging only works for those atoms having magnetic moments
and currently has a resolution of millimeters, so it would
have to be improved by a factor of a billion. Perhaps another
method can be discovered, or teleportation might be limited
to atoms with net spins.  Also, storing and transmitting this
amount of data boggles my mind.
--- John




********To have your comments in the next issue, send electronic mail to********
                      'infopara' at the following address:

UUCP  {ncar,isis,boulder}!scicom!infopara
DOMAIN  [e-mail]
ADMIN Address [e-mail]
  {ncar,isis,boulder}!scicom!infopara-request

******************The**End**of**Info-ParaNet**Newsletter************************


                Info-ParaNet Newsletters   Volume I  Number 379

                            Monday, March 18th 1991

Today's Topics:

                             Hatonn And The Pleiades
                                   GB sighting
                                    Re: Ss433
                                       ME
          Goof
                that 'fireball' -- potentially high strangeness!
                                     (none)
                                Red Light Special
                             Re: HAATON STUFF, ETC.
                             PHILISOPHICAL CONCERNS
                                    New Echo
                         Unusual Aircraft Illuminations
                               Public Opinion Poll
                                 Re: Bill cooper
                                      Goof
                               Fireball clippings

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Subject: Hatonn And The Pleiades
Date: 15 Mar 91 22:43:00 GMT


 > From: [e-mail] (Dan Drasin)



Thank you for your posting on the Phoenix Journals and Hatonn.

It is not so much that I don't believe that "channeling" is real, but more,
what scientific methods can be applied to study the phenomena?  I was talking
with a person the other day who told me that there have been some solid-based
scientific research done regarding psychic phenomenon.

Does anyone have any information relating scientific research being conducted
to validate psychic phenomenon?

Mike

--
Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (John Hicks)
Subject: GB sighting
Date: 12 Mar 91 07:19:00 GMT

STRANGE LIGHT IN SKY DRAWS ATTENTION

by David Baker, THE GULF BREEZE SENTINEL, March 3, 1991.

  On February 23, 1991 two Pensacola men were sighing on the three mile bridge.
AT approximately 7:50 p.m. the fishermen's attention was drawn to a bright red
light which suddenly appeared over Gulf Breeze.
  The two men said the light would dim then come back bright red, stay that way
for a while and then dim again, all the while moving slowly in their direction.
They detected no sound from the object.
  Before the object disappeared it blinked to green momentarily, changed to a
brilliant white and slowly faded away. The sighting lasted about four minutes
and there were nine additional witnesses.

--
John Hicks - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Greenen)
Subject: Re: Ss433
Date: 14 Mar 91 13:50:00 GMT

Mike; from I have heard, there has been a lot of articules been
written on this object because it is different from anything that
they have detected. There are other Ufologist that are also
interested and are keeping tabs on SS433. I wish I could tell you
more but can't at this time. But from passed history, we are
sometimes not told the whole truth about certain things. And this we
are told for are on good. I think that SS433 maybe one of those half
truths. Maybe some of the readers of this echo might have some
information that they would like to share on this subject.
   If you get the feeling that I'm side stepping this, I am because
I don't want anybody to get into trouble.   73's   ---Jim---
--
Jim Greenen - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Greenen)
Subject: Goof
Date: 14 Mar 91 14:11:02 GMT

Mike; So much for trying to edit a line. I tried to say that I
talked to John Hicks last week and look on Page 13 through 20 in
February issue of "The Missing Link".     ---Jim---
--
Jim Greenen - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (John Hicks)
Subject: that 'fireball' -- potentially high strangeness!
Date: 14 Mar 91 18:56:01 GMT


  How about that maybe a ufo used the fireball as cover, so as to be
hidden from radar until it could drop below radar coverage.
Speculation, of course.

                                           jbh

--
John Hicks - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (John Hicks)
Subject: (none)
Date: 14 Mar 91 18:58:02 GMT


  I'm no kind of expert on flares, but generally they really mess up
radio communications and a strong flare can cause an aurora in
latitudes much closer to the equator than ordinarily.
  UTC (GMT, Zulu) is five hours ahead of EST.

                                           jbh

--
John Hicks - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (John Hicks)
Subject: Red Light Special
Date: 14 Mar 91 19:03:03 GMT


 > I am not too sure that we can dismiss balloons yet.  I recall
 > that there was something done with balloons there about a year
 > ago as a joke.

  Some kids let loose balloons with a light attached across a softball
field. It was a very low-level, short-lived event, complete with a
police apprehension of the kids.
  While I agree that at least some of the red light sightings are
probably hoaxes, I think we'd really need to examine all the red light
events in order to draw any valid conclusions or opinions. And it's
very difficult to get all those reports together.

                                           jbh

--
John Hicks - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Pete Porro)
Subject: Re: HAATON STUFF, ETC.
Date: 14 Mar 91 18:41:43 GMT

What's the number? I have a friend whyo would be very interested in this
material. Personally the catalog would be something to see. Concentration
camps in the US? Sure they are going to be over filled with criminals,
because we already have the highest level of imprisonment, even more than the
ruskies. Meanwhile what does all this Othave to do with Paranormal or UFO's,
there must be some titles in there about aliens taking over or something? Any
clues as to the base origin of these articles?
--
Pete Porro - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Pete Porro)
Subject: PHILISOPHICAL CONCERNS
Date: 14 Mar 91 18:57:55 GMT

I read your continuing debate with boredom at many points. The reason is not
what you have stated or in some cases what others propose, but because of the
nit picking out of your statements, mis-quoting, and goal-less attacks on
motives or people. (that may have been unclear, I meant picking parts out of
your statements without concern for the whole of the material, then arguing
one word instead of a concept)

My answer is in this case: "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't
teach it to do the back stroke!"

Keep trying Rick!
--
Pete Porro - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (sm)
Subject: New Echo
Date: 16 Mar 91 01:56:00 GMT

This is to announce that ParaNet Information Service has started a new echo to
be carried on the FidoNet backbone.  It is a general UFO echo which will be
available to anyone wishing to carry it without having to join the ParaNet
Network.  Its purpose is to assure that a balanced conference is provided for
the uninitiated enthusiast who wishes to learn more about the phenomenon.  Any
Fidonet sysop or alternate network sysop who wishes to carry it is encouraged
to netmail Michael Corbin @ 1:104/422 or Paul Faeder @ 1:268/102.

ParaNet

--
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UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: ParaNet(sm)[e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: anubis.network.com!logajan
Subject: Unusual Aircraft Illuminations
Date: 16 Mar 91 20:17:35 GMT

From: [e-mail] (John Logajan)

One of my associates reports that he was out for an evening walk with his
dog here in the Minneapolis area last week when a high altitude aircraft
shined an incredibly bright light directly down on him.  The aircraft was
almost directly overhead when the beam passed over him.  This rules out
landing lights as they point forward and down, and not just down.  He said
the beam passed over him very quickly, probably at the ground speed
equivalent of the aircraft's velocity.

By high altitude he probably meant no longer able to distinquish aircraft
shape (at night).  And he described the brightness as 'daylight.'  The
aircraft had normal lights otherwise.


- John Logajan @ Network Systems; 7600 Boone Ave; Brooklyn Park, MN 55428
- [e-mail], 612-424-4888, Fax [phone]




--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (sm)
Subject: Public Opinion Poll
Date: 16 Mar 91 06:30:00 GMT

To All:

In order to improve the quality of the network, we have incorporated a
questionaire form in this message for our readership.  We would appreciate you
taking a moment of your time to reply to it so that we may get an idea of how
you view our service.

Responses are welcome in this conference, or by netmail via Fidonet or
Internet at the following addresses:

Fidonet:  Michael Corbin @ 1:104/422
Internet: [e-mail]

We hope that you will provide us with a reply as this is your network, and our
efforts can be maximized with your feedback and cooperation.

Thank you.

Michael Corbin
Director

-----------------------DETACH HERE------------------------

NAME:
NETWORK ADDRESS, IF APPLICABLE:
DATE:

1)  HOW MANY DAYS PER WEEK DO YOU READ PARANET CONFERENCES?

2)  WOULD YOU JUDGE THE QUALITY OF THE MATERIAL TO BE:

      _____POOR

      _____FAIR

      _____GOOD

      _____EXCELLENT

3)  DO YOU FEEL THAT THERE IS A GOOD BALANCE OF VIEWPOINTS CONTAINED WITHIN
THE CONFERENCES?

4)  DO YOU PREFER:

      _____SKEPTICAL MATERIAL

      _____SCIENTIFIC MATERIAL

      _____SENSATIONAL MATERIAL

      _____NEW AGE MATERIAL

5)  HOW OFTEN DO YOU POST TO THE CONFERENCES?

6)  IF THE ANSWER TO 5 IS VERY SELDOM TO NONE, PLEASE DESCRIBE WHY.

7)  ARE YOU AWARE THAT PARANET IS AN INTERNATIONAL NETWORK?

8)  IS YOUR USAGE OF PARANET FOR PERSONAL OR RESEARCH PURPOSES?

9)  DESCRIBE YOUR UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT PARANET IS.

10)  WHAT CAN WE DO TO IMPROVE PARANET?

11)  DO YOU FEEL WE SHOULD DEVOTE MORE TIME TO EDUCATION ABOUT THE PHENOMENON?

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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Rick Moen)
Subject: Re: Bill cooper
Date: 14 Mar 91 05:25:54 GMT

>    Don't throw all of Bill Cooper away but put it off to the side if
> you think its garbage. I have not done or tried to Channel aliens but
> have sat in on some sections and found them to be most interesting. I
> have not made a determination if what I see or hear is real but I
> won't throw it away as garbage. I have no proof that its real or not,
> so its a part of my puzzle. If you must close your mind to all what
> Bill Cooper, Hatonn or what ever, then you might as well join the Bay
> Area Skeptic group.

Dear Jim --

Perhaps you've forgotten (or somehow overlooked) that I was the fellow
who spoke up _against_ removing Bill Cooper's files from our download
directories, and was the only sysop in these parts to do so.  Maybe you
and I can form a Wild Bill Protection society, against the closed-minded
Paranet hordes.  ;-)

I've always been strongly in favour of open-mindedness -- as long as
your mind isn't so open that things flutter in and out.

Best Regards,
Rick Moen, Secretary
Bay Area Skeptics
Member, Electronic Communications Subcommittee, CSICOP

--
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UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Paul Faeder)
Subject: Goof
Date: 15 Mar 91 20:06:03 GMT

In a message of <14 Mar 91  07:11:02>, Jim Greenen (1:363/29) writes:

 >Mike; So much for trying to edit a line. I tried to say that I talked to
 >John Hicks last week and look on Page 13 through 20 in February issue of
 >"The Missing Link".     ---Jim---

 Jim, what's "the Missing Link"? A newsletter or magazine? If so can you
provide subscription information? Thanks!


--
Paul Faeder - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Subject: Fireball clippings
Date: 17 Mar 91 22:42:00 GMT

Copyright 1991. The Associated Press. All Rights Reserved.

   PHILADELPHIA (AP) -- A brilliant fireball that looked like "a boomerang on
its side" with a greenish-red tail streaked on Wednesday across the sky over
much of the Northeast, authorities said.
   The fireball flashed over southeastern Pennsylvania shortly after 3 a.m.,
according to Jim Krimm, an air traffic controller at Philadelphia
InternationalAirport. A pilot radioed that it "appeared to be the mother of
all meteors," Krimm said. "He said he had never seen anything in all his time
flying." Observers in Atlantic Highlands, N.J., and Ithaca, N.Y., and from
southwestern New Hampshire to Bangor, Maine, reported seeing the fireball.
Federal Aviation Administration representatives said pilots reported the
fireball to several airports in northern New Jersey. "This was big," said New
York state trooper Richard Haas. "I've seen shooting stars before and this
was nothing like that." FAA spokeswoman Diane Spitalieri said pilots who
called airports in Teeterboro, N.J., and Garden City, N.J., said the bright
light was moving back and forth over New York City. Mark Barton, a police
officer near Boston, said it looked like a "a boomerang on its side. A
cluster of lights with a big red firetail behind it." Stan Gordon of the
Pittsburgh-based Pennsylvania Association for the Study of the Unexplained, a
clearinghouse for UFO reports, said he received reports describing a fireball
that lasted five to six seconds, with a green tail mixed with some red color.


---------------------------------------

From Associated Press, later. Same restrictions apply.

AP 03/06 19:48 EST V0679


Copyright 1991. The Associated Press. All Rights Reserved.

   PHILADELPHIA (AP) -- People from Maine to West Virginia reported a
brilliantfireball in the sky early Wednesday, offering descriptions ranging
from "the size of a Volkswagen" to the shape of a "boomerang on its side."
"This was big," said New York state trooper Richard Haas. "I've seen shooting
stars before and this was nothing like that." People in West Virginia,
Virginia, Pennsylvania, New Jersey, New York, Connecticut, Massachusetts, New
Hampshire and Maine reported seeing the bright light, moving from west to
east, about 3 a.m. Philadelphia air traffic controller Jim Krimm said he took
three phone callsreporting it. One pilot radioed that it "appeared to be the
mother of all meteors," Krimm said. Many witnesses said the object appeared
to have a green-and-red tail and litup the sky for about five seconds before
it disappeared over the horizon. Haas said he was driving in Danby, N.Y.,
when he and his partner saw the bright light in the western sky. "It appeared
to be real low," Haas said. "We opened our windows to listen for a crash, but
we didn't hear anything." In Atlantic Highlands, N.J., Danny Fletcher, 23,
said he had just returned home from work when he saw the speeding light close
to the horizon. "At first, I thought it was a Scud missile," he said. Mark
Barton, a police officer near Boston, said it looked like "a boomerang on its
side. A cluster of lights with a big red fire tail behind it." "It was green
in color. I'd say it was about the size of a Volkswagen," saidpolice Sgt.
John Huyett in Martinsburg, W.Va. What people saw most likely was a
low-flying meteor that burned brightly from the friction of entering the
Earth's atmosphere, said Walter Webb, manager of planetarium observations at
the Charles Hayden Planetarium in Boston. "It's not unusual for fireballs to
be seen over an area of several hundred miles," Webb said. Derrick Pitts, an
astronomer at the Fells Planetarium of the Franklin Institute in
Philadelphia, said the object likely eventually broke up. James Cornell of
the Smithsonian Astrophysical Observatory in Cambridge, Mass., said the
object either disintegrated in the atmosphere or fell into the Atlantic
Ocean, based on its west-to-east trajectory. "About 95 percent of these
meteors disintegrate in the atmosphere, usually about 30 or 40 miles above
the earth's surface," Cornell said. Cornell and Webb said they had been in
contact with federal officials, who were not tracking any satellites that
might have fallen to Earth at the time.


---------------------------------

From Internet-CIS E-mail, forwarded by Jim Shaffer:
Subj:  Long Island UFO reported

Clark Matthews announced a UFO sighting on Paranet which seems like it's
probably connected to the fireball that we were discussing in the
Issuesforum. (Either it's connected, or it's a really unfortunate
coincidence -- unfortunate because the debunkers will point to the fireball
and ignore the rest of the reports.)

Here's the article -- it looks like this case is going to be a big one, no
matter what the media do with it!

>From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
>Subject: Long Island UFO
>
>Preliminary reports indicate sightings of a large, spherical,
>slow-moving object with four "exhaust-like" lights and vapor trails.
>The object was whitish blue and was observed to change course and
>possibly altitude.
>
>It was first observed over the borough of Queens in New York City at
>around midnight 3/5/91 and was last observed by two police officers
>in Mastic in eastern Long Island three hours later.
>
>Observations were reported from aircraft and witnesses on the
>ground.
>
>Further updates will come as soon as the information is available &
>verified.
>
>Best,
>  Clark
>
>--
>Clark Matthews - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
>UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
>INTERNET: [e-mail]

*  From the disk of:  | [e-mail]               | "There's UFOs over New
Jim Shaffer, Jr.      | amix.commodore.com!vanth!jms | York, and I ain't too
37 Brook Street       | uunet!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms  | surprised."
Montgomery, PA 17752  | [e-mail]    |      (John Lennon)
      "Nobody told me there'd be days like these... Strange days indeed!"

-------------------------------------------------

From CIS Issues, section 10:

#: 103325 S10/Paranormal Issues
    11-Mar-91  00:11:40
Sb: #102464-Eastern US Fireball
Fm: James T. Sullivan 76210,1244
To: Michael Houdeshell 70003,4667

Thanks for the return on the UFO/Fireball. Other oddball things have been
coming to my attention since the night of the sightings. It seems two of my
employees are convinced what they saw was a real entity, under some apparent
intentional control, moving without consideration of basic aerodynamic
properties, and executing these moves quite rapidly. One of the oddball things
I have noticed, as if this story wasn't enough, was the manner they spoke
aboutthe sighting: they both get quite emotional (and they're not the
fantasy- prone type) when I asked them what they were doing immediately prior
to the sighting.They appear to have had some sort of memory lapse. And they
also appear to be unduly upset by this lapse. Jim Sullivan

Read action !pare
#: 102464 S10/Paranormal Issues
    07-Mar-91  14:00:22
Sb: #102384-#Eastern US Fireball
Fm: Michael Houdeshell 70003,4667
To: James T. Sullivan 76210,1244 (X)

What really gets me is that an FAA spokewoman told the AP that two pilots had
(separately) seen and reported the fireball moving back and forth over The Big
Apple. Isn't that a first?

There are 2 Replies.

Read action !pare

#: 102384 S10/Paranormal Issues
    07-Mar-91  03:00:18
Sb: #102263-#Eastern US Fireball
Fm: James T. Sullivan 76210,1244
To: Michael Houdeshell 70003,4667 (X)

Two police officers and several of my friends saw the "fireball". I live
Burlington, MA, where a lot of the action took place. Two of my employees told
me they saw it hover, under apparent control, and display some lighting
effects(blue beams). Another weird coincidence: I have a friend in the movie
biz who sculpted Alien's for Communion. I have one sitting on my desk as a
big paperweight. Several people I frequently do business with can't tolerate
the sculpture in the room with them and I'm always forced to remove it. They
have no interest in paranormal events (almost overly derisive of the subject)
- theyshare that aversion. They are from this area.

The day before the "fireball" appeared here, one of these skeptics stormed
intomy office to tell me his 9 year old daughter woke him, complaining of
little alien creatures in her bedroom. He scoffed, sent her to bed, behaving
like a good skeptic (he didn't even give her a plausible "bad dream"
explanation).

Another employee told me today that it woke her right out of bed. I asked her
how - sound, light, smoke? She has no recall. Radio stations have been buzzing
with call-in's all day. Keep in mind that this is not Mayberry RFD, but a
largehigh-tech sector, just ten minutes from Boston.

Jim Sullivan 76210,1244



----------------------

--
Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



********To have your comments in the next issue, send electronic mail to********
                      'infopara' at the following address:

UUCP  {ncar,isis,boulder}!scicom!infopara
DOMAIN  [e-mail]
ADMIN Address [e-mail]
  {ncar,isis,boulder}!scicom!infopara-request

******************The**End**of**Info-ParaNet**Newsletter************************


                Info-ParaNet Newsletters   Volume I  Number 380

                           Wednesday, March 20th 1991

Today's Topics:

                             Hatonn And The Pleiades
                                    New Echo
                                      Goof
                                  More Missing
                                Kecksburg Redux 1
                                Kecksburg Redux 2
                                Kecksburg Redux 3
                              Hackers/Crop Circles
                that 'fireball' -- potentially high strangeness!
                                 Re: Bill cooper
                                Fritterheads(tm)
                              Forward/transporters
                                 Re: Bill Cooper

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Steve Rose)
Subject: Hatonn And The Pleiades
Date: 17 Mar 91 16:25:00 GMT

Hello Michael!

 MC> It is not so much that I don't believe that "channeling" is real, but
 MC> more, what scientific methods can be applied to study the phenomena?
 MC> I was talking with a person the other day who told me that there have
 MC> been some solid-based scientific research done regarding psychic
 MC> phenomenon.

Yeah, I have been an attendee at a few 'Full-Trance' and 'Semi-Trance' sittings
in years gone by.  Just surface observations though.  The 'medium' and helpers
generally frown at any official examinations.  Such measurement type apparatus
seems to scare them easily.  As the old saying goes:
"Mediums do their best work in the dark!"  :-)

 MC> Does anyone have any information relating scientific research being
 MC> conducted to validate psychic phenomenon?

Most probably.  But I bet if ParaNet members were to form a 'seek out and
observe' travel group for various claimants of this phenomenon, as I assume
they have done for UFO sightings...I believe there would be a lot less Phoenix
Journal 'Hatonn' facade types floating about.



--
Steve Rose - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Steve Rose)
Subject: New Echo
Date: 17 Mar 91 16:45:00 GMT


 PIS> learn more about the phenomenon.  Any Fidonet sysop or alternate
 PIS> network sysop who wishes to carry it is encouraged to netmail Michael
 PIS> Corbin @ 1:104/422 or Paul Faeder @ 1:268/102.

Sigh...I knew this day would come.  I know the traffic on that echo will no
doubt be quite 'noisy' when the word gets out over Fight-O-Net.  I hope the
moderator of that conference is up tp the task required of him/her.  :-)


--
Steve Rose - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Greenen)
Subject: Goof
Date: 18 Mar 91 01:55:00 GMT


 PF> In a message of <14 Mar 91  07:11:02>, Jim Greenen
 PF> (1:363/29) writes:
 PF>
 PF>  >Mike; So much for trying to edit a line. I tried to say that I talked
 PF> to
 PF>  >John Hicks last week and look on Page 13 through 20 in February issue
 PF> of
 PF>  >"The Missing Link".     ---Jim---
 PF>
 PF>  Jim, what's "the Missing Link"? A newsletter or magazine?
 PF> If so can you provide subscription information? Thanks!
 PF>
 PF>
 PF> --- QM v1.00
 PF>  * Origin: -=<ParaNet(sm) Omicron>=-  (717)-588-7549
 PF> 14.4K HST (9:1010/0.0)
"The Missing Link" is a magazine edited by Aileen Bringleand is
published by UFO Contact Center International. The subscription is
$19.00 a year. The address is 3001 South 288th St. #304, Federal
Way, Washington 98003. I met Aileen over the xmas holidays when she
visited Orlando. She is also Co-Host for the First UFO Congress that
will be held in Tucson, Arizona 3 May through 7 May 1991. I hope
that will help.
            73's     ---Jim---
--
Jim Greenen - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Don Ecker)
Subject: More Missing
Date: 9 Mar 91 16:18:00 GMT

Clark:

Thanks for the two `cases' you mentioned. I remember reading
about both those events years ago, but I did not remember
where I had read them. The WWI case with the UK troops is if
memory recalls, a very famous event. I do not believe this
was ever satisfactorly explained.

Don

--
Don Ecker - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: Kecksburg Redux 1
Date: 19 Mar 91 18:48:00 GMT

Thanks to Jim Delton for finding this gem and scanning it into my system.
Can anyone reach Stan Gordon for comment?

-----------

Reprinted for the Spring 1991 Skeptical Inquirer
   By Robert R. Young



       On September 19, 1990, the NBC television network's
season opener of "Unsolved Mysteries" featured a half hour
segment on the heretofore little-known "Kecksburg UFO Crash." It
was alleged that this involved the crash and recovery by the U.
S.  military of an unidentified flying object with strange alien
markings in the small western Pennsylvania town of Kecksburg, near
Pittsburgh, on December 9, 1965.
       The program was the tenth most watched in America in a week
that saw the introduction of the season's "new" shows.  It was
viewed in an estimated 17.7 percent of households with television
and on 30 percent of all television sets turned on (Broadcasting
1990).  Recent surveys for the National Science Foundation report
that 2 in 5 adult Americans believe that alien spaceships account
for some UFO reports (Science News 1986).  It therefore seems
likely that several million viewers may have been predisposed to
accept the premise of the program.
       This "saucer crash" has not been widely known to UFOlogists
or UFO skeptics because it appears never to have happened.
According to a review of all original published accounts, the sole
witnesses to the saucer crash apparently were two eight-year-old
children who were among thousands in nine states and Canada to
view a bolide (brilliant) meteor (Gatty 1965).
       Add to this a gullible local flying saucer buff who has
finally found "his own" thrilling flying saucer crash to
investigate; the U.S.  Air Force "Project Blue Book" UFO
investigating office; "unnamed Pentagon sources"; a secret
military satellite launch; the Pennsylvania State Police; the
Kecksburg volunteer fire company; local news reporters who were at
first kept away; the 24-year-old recollections of local
citizens; and the recent materialization of "new" witnesses.
       According to a front-page story in the nearby Greensburg,
Pennsylvania, Tribune-Review the day after the TV show, some
Kecksburg residents, including many observers of the 1965 event
and even some portrayed in the program, say it is all a hoax.
Some residents blame two local men whose story of a copper-colored
12' by 7' "acorn-shaped" object with "hieroglyphic" markings had
surfaced only a couple of months earlier-almost a quarter-century
after the original publicity.
       Tribune-Review staff writer David Darby (1990) reported
that more than 50 Kecksburg residents sent a petition to the
program's producers in an attempt to stop its airing.  The paper
reported that these nonbelievers included Ed Myers, the Kecksburg
fire chief in 1965, who was portrayed by an actor on the program;
Jerome and Valerie Miller, whose home was portrayed as the site of
a "military command post" during UFO recovery operations; the
owners of the land where the saucer was supposed to have landed;
and Kecksburg firemen.
       Myers expressed concern.  "It's killing me to know this is
going nationwide, because there's absolutely no truth to it," he
told Darby.  "Something's gonna be put in the history books for
my grandchildren to read, and it is just not true."
       The Millers, the paper reported, deny that their home was a
center of military activity.  Darby said "whoops of laughter"
filled the Miller living room when a group of residents who
consider the whole thing a hoax gathered to watch the melodramatic
program.
       Several elements combined in 1965 to create local hysteria.
For several days the world had been fascinated by front-page
coverage of the missions of Gemini 6 and 7, two U.S.  spacecraft
set for a manned joining.  The day of the incident (December 9)
the Pitts- burgh Press, widely read in the Kecksburg area,
reported that Frank Edwards, a nationally known flying saucer
lecturer and broadcaster had arrived in the city to speak.  The
headline, "Lift UFO Secrecy, Saucer Believer Says," had a "kicker"
above it, "U.  S.  Hush-Up Charged."
       However, the Erie Daily Times (December 10) reported
another event that day that went largely unnoticed:  a secret
satellite was launched from Vandenberg Air Force Base, Califor-
nia, a launchsite for military polar-orbiting reconnaissance
missions.  The stage was set.
       Shortly after 4:40 p.m.  (EST) a brilliant bolide, or
"fireball," was seen by thousands in Idaho, Illinois, Indi- and
Michigan, New York, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Virginia, West Virginia,
and Ontario, Canada, according to reports on December 10 in the
Erie Daily Times; the Pittsburgh Press, the New York Times, and
the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette.  The fireball was even said to have
been seen in California (Pittsburgh Press, Dec.  10, 1965).
Astronomers from Michigan, Ohio, and Pennsylvania, who had
received many reports, concluded the object had been a bright
meteor (Erie Daily Times, Pittsburgh Press, New York Times,
Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, Dec.  10).  This was also the conclusion
of the Federal Aviation Administration, according to a spokesman
at Erie, Pennsylvania (Erie Daily Times; Pittsburgh
Post-Gazette); Air Force spokesmen in Washington; and unnamed
"Pentagon sources" (Pittsburgh Press, New York Times).

[continued next]

--
Jim Speiser - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: Kecksburg Redux 2
Date: 19 Mar 91 18:49:00 GMT


       Reports of bolides are typically inaccurate.  Astronomer
Frank Drake (1971), after efforts to recover meteorites from
fireball reports, has estimated the fraction of eyewitnesses who
are wrong about something to be I out of 2 after one day, 3 out of
4 after two days, and 9 out of 10 after four days.  Witnesses
often grossly underestimate the distance of fireballs, which may
be dozens of miles high.  When the meteors disappear over the
horizon it is sometimes taken as a "nearby" event (Klass 1974:42-
49).
       The 1965 fireball was no exception.  It was reported to
have "crashed" or "landed" in six widely separated locations.  A
pilot in the air reported watching as it "plummeted" into Lake
Erie (Pittsburgh Press, Dec.  10).  At Midland, Pennsylvania, west
of Pitts- burgh, falling debris was reported but police found
nothing (Erie Daily Times, Pittsburgh Press, Dec.  10).  At
Elyria, Ohio, west of Cleveland, a woman reported that a
fireball the size of a "volley ball" fell into a wooded lot.
Firemen reported 10 small grass fires but no flying saucer
(Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, Dec.  10).
       At Lapeer, Michigan, 40 miles north of Detroit, sheriff's
officers investigating the report of "a ball of fire crashing"
found only pieces of tinfoil (Pittsburgh Press, Dec.  10).  The
most spectacular report came from Detroit and Windsor, Ontario,
where pilots, weather observers, and U.  S.  Coast Guard personnel
reported that a flying object "exploded" over Detroit.  Coast
Guard boats sent into Lake St.  Clair found nothing (Tribune-
Review, County Edition, Dec.  10).  The Air Force UFO
investigating office at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, Ohio, may
have been interested in the recovery of space-launch debris and
sent three-man investigating teams from the 662 Radar Squadron,
based near Pittsburgh, to Kecksburg and Erie (Erie Daily Times,
Pittsburgh Post- Gazette).
       In Kecksburg the scene had turned into a circus.  Little
Kevin Kalp had run and told his mother, Mrs.  Arnold Kalp of RD 1,
Acme, Pennsylvania, that he had seen something "like a star on
fire." Going outside she saw "blue smoke" that seemed to come from
a nearby woods (Gatty 1965; Pittsburgh Press, Dec.  10).  Other
reports had described a bright trail left in the air by the meteor
(Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, Dec 10).  A "thump" whose vibration felt
by one witness was attributed to dynamiting at a local quarry or
to a shock wave heard by many western Pennsylvanians who witnessed
the fireball.  Mrs.  Kalp called a local radio station that had
been reporting a plane crash.  Soon, according to the Tribune-
Review, a "massive traffic jam" had engulfed the small town
(Gatty, Tribune-Review, City Edition, Dec.  10, Dec.  11).
       A local volunteer fire policeman informed reporters that
the Army and the state police had told them not to let anybody in
(Gatty 1965).  One result was that an early edition of the
Greensburg paper carried a seven- column banner headline atop page
one, "'Unidentified Flying Object Falls Near Kecksburg," and,
"Army ropes off area" (Greensburg Tribune-Review, County Edition,
Dec.  10).
       Captain Joseph Dussia, commander of the Pennsylvania State
Police Troop A Headquarters at Greensburg, announced the next day
that after an all-night search "absolutely nothing had been
found." Reports of something being carried from the area
referred only to equipment used in the search, Dussia said.  He
added, "Someone made a mountain out of a molehill" (Greensburg
Tribune-Review, City Edition, Dec.  10).  The Air Force also
announced that nothing had been found (Pittsburgh Press, Dec.
10).  The next day a Greensburg Tribune-Review editorial
summarized its staff's independent investigation:  Nothing at
all seems to have happened (Dec.  11).  The official explanations
are totally consistent with all published accounts and the
present recollections of scores of witnesses.

[continued next]

--
Jim Speiser - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: Kecksburg Redux 3
Date: 19 Mar 91 18:52:00 GMT


       When does the "unsolved mystery" come in?  Now enters Stan
Gordon, founder of the Pennsylvania Association for the Study of
the Unexplained (PASU), a Greensburg-based group that collects
sightings of UFOs, Bigfoot, and other oddities, such as the
"Eastern Cougar," an animal that has been extinct for a hundred
years.  PASU seems to do little research into these events but
does issue press releases.  Gordon, a 30-year veteran of saucer
chases, is also Pennsylvania director of the Mutual UFO Network
(MUFON), the nation's largest surviving flying-saucer group.
       Each year in early January PASU issues its annual press
release to Pennsylvania newspapers listing exciting reports
received during the previous year.  Their 1989 release featured an
alleged UFO encounter by a Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, policeman
(Latrobe Bulletin, Jan.  9, 1989).  A PASU investigator later said
the witness had suffered "severe burns" and a "severe eye injury."
MUFON's state director soon turned it into a "returning UFO
abductee" encounter, making claims publicly denied by the witness.
Local amateur astronomers found the witness had been looking at
the planet Venus.  The witness refused to be examined by a
physician; a PASU investigator "lost" film evidence of the
witness' injuries, and a substance Gordon had tested at a
laboratory and then described as "strange" and "unusual" turned
out to be a common fertilizer (Young 1989).
       In 1990 PASU issued a call for anyone with knowledge of the
Kecksburg UFO crash to come forward (Latrobe Bulletin).  With an
experienced nose for saucer news, they must have sensed that even
after 24 years witnesses always seem to be willing to come forward
if the case is exciting.
       Actually, the Kecksburg UFO tale has been making the rounds
among Pennsylvania saucer buffs for some time.  Flying-saucer
evangelist Robert D.  Barry hosts a Saturday midnight program, "ET
Monitor," on WGCB-TV, Red Lion, Pennsylvania, a religious
station, where he mixes NASA films, UFOria, viewer calls, and
occasional Bible readings.  Barry mentioned the Kecksburg
recovery in a lecture at Elizabethtown College, Elizabethtown,
Pennsylvania, on March 22, 1989, and followed on his April 2,
1989, program with the revelation that the incident involved the
recovery of "bodies." Later, on his April 23, 1989, broadcast, he
stated that no bodies were involved in the UFO accident.
       Barry says that years ago he was told by an unnamed NASA
informant that the Kecksburg UFO had been tracked, a claim that is
contradicted by statements made by a North American Air Defense
Command spokesman at the time (Erie Daily Times; Pittsburgh Press;
Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, Dec.  10).  Barry has also reported,
citing Stan Gordon as his source, that a 1965 member of the
Kecksburg Fire Company claims it had been contacted by NASA before
the UFO crashed and asked to keep the public away from the area, a
claim contradicted by the original published reports and
eyewitness statements (Tribune-Review, City Edition, Dec.  10,
1965).
       A curious claim, oddly similar to the Kecksburg story,
occurred January 28, 1990, on Bob Barry's television program.  At
7:10 P.m.  (EST) that evening a bright fireball had been seen over
much of the East Coast (Harrisburg Sunday Patriot-News, Jan.  28,
1990).  That night on "ET Monitor" Barry reported that "a
Greensburg source," a euphemism he sometimes uses for PASU's Stan
Gordon, had called to say that "an object landed" nearby at about
7:20 P.M., that the area had been cordoned off, and that the
source was "trying to get as close as he could." A well-known
baseball philosopher would have been prompted to say that it
seemed like "deja vu all over again.  "
       It is too bad the producers an researchers at "Unsolved
Mysteries" didn't scratch around a little.  At least 50 folks at
Kecksburg could have saved them an embarrassment.

References

Broadcasting.  1990.  (Cites  Nielsen  and  its
   own research.) P. 40.
Darby,  David.  1990.  Greensburg  Tribune-
   Review (Greensburg, Pa.), December 10,
   P. 1.
Drake,  Frank.  1972.  On  the  abilities  and
   limitations  of  witnesses  of  UFO's  and
   similar phenomena. In UFO's: A Scientific
   Debate,  247-257,  eds.  Carl  Sagan  and
   Thornton  Page  (New  York:  Cornell
   University Press and W. W. Norton).
Gatty, Bob. 1965. Unidentified flying object
   report touches off probe near Kecksburg.
   Greensburg  Tribune-Review,  December
   10, p. 1.
Klass, Philip J. 1974. UFOs Explained (New
   York: Random House/Vintage), pp. 42-49.
   Science News. 1986. 129:118.
Young, Robert R. 1989. "Harrisburg 'UFO
   Incident' Stimulated by Venus." Unpub-
   lished manuscript by the author.


Robert R.  Young is education chairman
of the Astronomical Society of Harrisburg,
Pennsylvania.  Address:  319  S.  Front
Street, Harrisburg, PA 17104.

--
Jim Speiser - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Delton)
Subject: Hackers/Crop Circles
Date: 20 Mar 91 04:12:00 GMT

An interesting article from "Gvt Computer News", a freebie newspaper
for gvt employees in the computer biz.

       A group of computer hackers, apparently seeking information
on UFOs, broke into Animal and Plant Health Inspection Service
computers in October but were not detected until last month.
       In early January, APHIS officials learned from the FBI
that hackers in England had accessed the agency's Prime Computer
Inc.  systems through U. S. Sprint Communications Co.'s public
TeleNet.  At first, agency officiels had no idea why APHIS was a
target or if any damage had been done.  With the FBl's help,
APHIS officials discovered the security breach occurred in
October and isolated the types of searches done by the hackers.
       So far, no damage to APHIS data or systems has been found.
The computer system consists of Prime 1350 minicomputers at each
of the Agriculture Department agency's 40 field offices and
three larger Prime 9955 minicomputers at the Hyattsville, Md.,
headquarters.  Each field office has Four or five Prime PT200
terminals hanging off the 1350.  The Hyattsville office has
about 500 PT200's supported by the 9955s.
       The minicomputers communicate nationwide--through a wide
area network on Sprint's TeleNet.  Most of the traffic
consists of text files, said Sam Ladd, associate deputy
administrator of APHIS' Management and Budget Division.  An
informant told the FBI the hackers were seeking information on
UFOs, Ladd said.  But in its review, APHIS found the hackers also
had sought ways to access agency systems, he said.  "They
apparently had Prime source code, so their ability to penetrate
Prime systems was pretty good," Ladd said.  "They already were on
the Sprint network and were trying to test access to break in.
When they saw Agriculture, they thought there may be something
interesting.  Their
       Their interest was in UFOs and markings in wheat fields."
APHIS, with 5,OOO employees, helps keep plant and animal diseases
out of the United States.  The agency also tries to minimize
damage if diseases do get into the country.
       Besides the UFO information, the hackers apparently were
looking for anything else intriguing, Ladd said.  "They were
looking for anything of value they could use," he said.  "Some
files contained telephone credit card [numbers]." Although the
hackers got into these files, there is no evidence that they used
the credit cards, he said.
       One early concern was that the hackers might have set a
virus loose in the APHIS computers.  But after two weeks of
investi- gation, officials ruled out that possibility, Ladd said.
APHIS computer programmer Jeff Tessmer was assigned to undertake
the search for system alterations by the hackers.  Over a
weekend, Tessmer identified four APHIS systems containing
unfamiliar files:  two in Hyattsville, one in Jefferson City, Mo.,
and one in Wilmington, N.C.  "I went into the systems
administrator mode and started looking at suspicious files by
date and time," Tessmer recounted.  "It looked as if they were trying
to
use our network to get into other systems at other network
addresses."
       Tessmer said at one point while he was logged onto the
network, one of the hackers also logged on.  "One of them logged
on while I was on.  I went into the administrator mode and changed
his password, then logged back on using that password.  By doing
this I was able to kick him off the network,"  Tessmer said.
"With this system you can only log yourself off."
       Though no damage appears to have occurred, Ladd said the
incident was a nuisance.  On the plus side, it did help top
agency managers recognize the need for computer security measures,
he added.  To beef up security, the agency has changed all its
passwords and user identification codes, making them more secure.
--
Jim Delton - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Tyson Mitchiner)
Subject: that 'fireball' -- potentially high strangeness!
Date: 18 Mar 91 09:56:00 GMT

This message is actually to all...
Did anyone see 60 minutes on Sunday, March 17th?  I saw a preview of
the show, which had objects flying in boomerang formation flying
near the Washington monument.  I unfortunately was not able to watch
it, and was curious if that was linked to this subject, or if that
was just a bunch of planes flying in formation?
                                        Tyson
--
Tyson Mitchiner - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Greenen)
Subject: Re: Bill cooper
Date: 18 Mar 91 14:20:00 GMT

Sorry Rick; but I can't go along with you on that one. The purpose
of the message was not to protect Bill Cooper from his problems he
has but to keep a open mind about all thats going on. As the SYSOP
of the Bay Area Skeptic group and reading some of your posting in
the BBS, I feel that your attentions are less then honorable. For
you to promote keeping Bill Coopers files (and I feel that thay
should be) is not for the reason you state. A person that makes
claims as being a skeptic and belongs to such organization is not
being fair with himself when claims to be openminded.
    Please excuse me for being so blunt but I was not born with the
ability to be a diplomate and I try my best not to be a hypocrite.
I would enjoy discussing different topics with you but from past
experience that we have had on the BBS, I feel that the one thing
that you don't have is a open mind. This is not attended to be a
put down to you because your probably a very nice person but its
against the word SKEPTIC because its the exact opposite of
open-minded.
   You have read enough on this and other BBS that you should have
come to a conclusion that all of these claims of UFO sightings has
to merit some consideration on your part. I and 20 million others
have seen some very strange things flying around in our skys and the
purpose is not if thay exist but its the who, what and where that
I'm interested in. If you have doubts, then I would recommend
reading "Above Top Secret" for a start and then past it around the
Bay Area group. Then log on the echo as Rick Moen the person that is
interested in learning all he can on this subject and not Rick Moen
the skeptic. Between the two of us, maybe we can find some parts to
the puzzle.      73's     ---Jim---
--
Jim Greenen - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Matt Drury)
Subject: Fritterheads(tm)
Date: 18 Mar 91 14:40:00 GMT

"> I've always been strongly in favour of open-mindedness -- as long as
"> your mind isn't so open that things flutter in and out.

An excellent way to ignore any opinion that doesn't fit your worldview
without sacrificing your high moral and ethical standards. Sir, I salute
you.

--
Matt Drury - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Matt Drury)
Subject: Forward/transporters
Date: 18 Mar 91 14:44:00 GMT

"> to atoms with net spins.  Also, storing and transmitting this
"> amount of data boggles my mind.

Using Phil Katz' new PKZIP 1.20 protocol on the 3D-scanned database you
posit should reduce the data to a workable size. However, a utility that is
more intelligent than PKZIPFIX will need to be authored for when the
transmission drops a bit (=nose or ear or other important organ).

"Let's use The Enemy for transporter testing."

--
Matt Drury - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Matt Drury)
Subject: Re: Bill Cooper
Date: 18 Mar 91 14:48:00 GMT

"> Sorry Rick; but I can't go along with you on that one. The
"> purpose of the message was not to protect Bill Cooper from

Forgive me for tuning in late, but what did Bill Cooper do to offend the
powers-that-be? Had I a collection of any author's frowned-upon text, I
would be disinclined to trash it for any reason short of a court order. I'd
rather leave it available, with appropriate editoral comments--and allow any
foolishness or fritterheadedness to reflect on the author hirself.

"Fun with networking."

--
Matt Drury - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



********To have your comments in the next issue, send electronic mail to********
                      'infopara' at the following address:

UUCP  {ncar,isis,boulder}!scicom!infopara
DOMAIN  [e-mail]
ADMIN Address [e-mail]
  {ncar,isis,boulder}!scicom!infopara-request

******************The**End**of**Info-ParaNet**Newsletter************************


                Info-ParaNet Newsletters   Volume I  Number 381

                            Sunday, March 24th 1991

Today's Topics:

                                      Goof
                             Hatonn And The Pleiades
                                    New Echo
                               CONTINUUM Continues
                              Call for Submissions
                               Linguist Appointed
                              New ParaNet Affiliate
                             Gravitational magnetism
                             Gravitational Magnetism
                             Hatonn And The Pleiades
                            Re: Statements of accepta
                                File Disclaimers
                              Re: File disclaimers

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Moderator's Note: Our Domain address is broken so until it is fixed use these
internet type addresses (Of course UUCP site don't have to do this):
[e-mail]   or   [e-mail]
We hope to have the domain mx record corrected this week.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: Goof
Date: 19 Mar 91 14:42:00 GMT


 > "The Missing Link" is a magazine edited by Aileen Bringleand is
 > published by UFO Contact Center International. The subscription is
 > $19.00 a year. The address is 3001 South 288th St. #304, Federal Way,
 > Washington 98003. I met Aileen over the xmas holidays when she visited
 > Orlando. She is also Co-Host for the First UFO Congress that will be
 > held in Tucson, Arizona 3 May through 7 May 1991. I hope that will help.
 >            73's     ---Jim---

Is she the former Aileen Edwards of Seattle?

Jim

--
Jim Speiser - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Subject: Hatonn And The Pleiades
Date: 18 Mar 91 21:43:00 GMT


 > Yeah, I have been an attendee at a few 'Full-Trance' and 'Semi-Trance'
 > sittings in years gone by.  Just surface observations though.  The
 > 'medium' and helpers generally frown at any official examinations.  Such
 > measurement type apparatus seems to scare them easily.  As the old
 > saying goes:
 > "Mediums do their best work in the dark!"  :-)

What were your observations?

 > Most probably.  But I bet if ParaNet members were to form a 'seek out
 > and observe' travel group for various claimants of this phenomenon, as I
 > assume they have done for UFO sightings...I believe there would be a lot
 > less Phoenix Journal 'Hatonn' facade types floating about.

More input.  Suggestions?

Mike

--
Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Subject: New Echo
Date: 18 Mar 91 21:45:00 GMT


 > Sigh...I knew this day would come.  I know the traffic on that echo will
 > no doubt be quite 'noisy' when the word gets out over Fight-O-Net.  I
 > hope the moderator of that conference is up tp the task required of
 > him/her.  :-)

It won't be that bad.  Just think of all those people out there reading those
other echoes getting seriously deluded over biased information.  Now, they
have a friend in the UFO business <grin>.

Mike

--
Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Subject: CONTINUUM Continues
Date: 19 Mar 91 13:47:00 GMT



             ***   P a r a N e t   C O N T I N U U M   ***

                               Continues ...

CONTINUUM is back!

ParaNet's newsletter of UFOlogy, online communications, paranormal
studies and research is resuming publication.  CONTINUUM will appear
quarterly, with the first issue scheduled for July of this year.

Planned articles in the coming issue include:

                            The Fatima Enigma
          Online listening post -- best of the ParaNet echoes
       The Philadelphia Experiment:  Build It in Your Basement?!
                   ParaNet -- 5 years and counting...
                              UFO History
                           UFO current events
                         Handy UFO classifieds
                              And more ...

An exciting forum for an array of interests -- and a handy resource for
finding:

                     Current UFO events and symposia
                        Computer bulletin boards
                              Study groups
                             Contact groups
                 Researchers and research organizations
                         Authors and publishers

A limited number of complimentary copies of CONTINUUM's premiere issue
will be made available to ParaNet participants and other interested
parties.  Thereafter, CONTINUUM will be available by subscription
only.

For further information, or to request a complimentary copy, send
electronic mail to:

   * Clark Matthews, Editorial Director
     ParaNet Pi 1-201-451-3063 (BBS)
     9:1012/4 (ParaNet)
     1:107/816 (FidoNet)
     P.O. Box 3934, Jersey City, NJ  07303-3934 (U.S. Mail)

   * Michael Corbin, ParaNet Administrator
     ParaNet Alpha 1-303-431-8797 (BBS)
     9:9/0 (ParaNet)
     1:104/422 (FidoNet)
     [e-mail] (Internet)

   * James Roger Black, Contributing Editor
     [e-mail] (Internet)

(CONTINUUM is a production of the ParaNet Information Service, which is
solely responsible for its content.  No endorsement by any other
organization or communication service is intended or should be implied.)

--
Clark Matthews - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Subject: Call for Submissions
Date: 19 Mar 91 13:48:00 GMT



             ***   P a r a N e t   C O N T I N U U M   ***

               C A L L   F O R   S U B M I S S I O N S

CONTINUUM is back!

ParaNet's newsletter of UFOlogy, research, online communications, and
paranormal studies is resuming publication -- and calling for
submissions.

We are seeking articles of 500 to 3000 words for the premiere issue,
which is scheduled for publication in July 1991.

Publication will be quarterly.  Payment will be in copies.

            *** S U B M I S S I O N   D E A D L I N E  ***

                             May 15, 1991

                         Send submissions to:

                            Clark Matthews
                         The Wrong Number BBS
                            P.O. Box 3934
                     Jersey City, NJ  07303-3934


          *** E D I T O R I A L   S U B M I S S I O N S ***

                           SUBMIT ANYTHING!

We don't PROMISE to publish it, but if your topic interests you as a
UFO buff, we think it's a safe bet that others in our "circle" will
share your interest.

Science fiction.  Science fact.  UFO/paranormal history.  Scaly-eyed
skepticism.  A book review.  A television critique.  An interview.  The
results of your last physics experiment.  You name it:  If it interests
you, it will probably interest us and your compeers here.  And it's
welcome in CONTINUUM.

Registered copyrighted material will be protected but we do assume a
grant of non-exclusive serial rights from you, the author, upon
submission and before delivery of complimentary copies.  You must
inform us of other, pending rights sales upon submission.  Likewise, if
you submit work-in-progress, your unpublished copyright will be
respected but a grant of non-exclusive serial rights is expected in
exchange for editorial and development work and before the delivery of
complimentary copies.  (Heck, we might even improve it!)


                 *** P L A N N E D   T O P I C S ***

Planned articles in the coming issue include:

                            The Fatima Enigma
          Online listening post -- best of the ParaNet echoes
       The Philadelphia Experiment:  Build It in Your Basement?!
                   ParaNet -- 5 years and counting...
                              UFO History
                           UFO current events
                         Handy UFO classifieds
                              And more ...


            *** M A G A Z I N E   H I G H L I G H T S ***

Free classified public notices of:

                         UFO events and symposia
                        Computer bulletin boards
                              Study groups
                             Contact groups
                 Researchers and research organizations
                         Authors and publishers

Maximum ad length is 40 words, including address and zip code.  Dues-
based membership organizations and sponsors of symposia may advertise,
but free classified ads cannot offer anything for sale.

Space for free classifieds is limited, and the offer does not apply to
display advertising.  The management reserves the right to refuse ads.
It's definitely "un-commercial", but we're committed to keeping the
"bulletin board" concept alive in the UFOlogical community.  So we want
CONTINUUM to be a helpful resource for its readers -- just like ParaNet
is for its users.  What goes around, comes around, in other words.

For further information, send electronic mail to:

   * Clark Matthews, Editorial Director
     ParaNet Pi 1-201-451-3063 (BBS)
     9:1012/4 (ParaNet)
     1:107/816 (FidoNet)
     P.O. Box 3934, Jersey City, NJ  07303-3934 (U.S. Mail)

   * Michael Corbin, ParaNet Administrator
     ParaNet Alpha 1-303-431-8797 (BBS)
     9:9/0 (ParaNet)
     1:104/422 (FidoNet)
     [e-mail] (Internet)

   * James Roger Black, Contributing Editor
     [e-mail] (Internet)

(CONTINUUM is a production of the ParaNet Information Service, which is
solely responsible for its content.  No endorsement by any other
organization or communication service is intended or should be implied.)

--
Clark Matthews - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Subject: Linguist Appointed
Date: 21 Mar 91 02:06:00 GMT

This is to announce that John Chalmers has volunteered to be of service to
ParaNet as a linguist.  We are very pleased to have John aboard.

John is a subscriber on the Internet and brings the ability to translate French
and Italian.  Anyone with articles in these languages for transcription are
encouraged to netmail them to me.

Thank you.

Michael Corbin

--
Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Subject: New ParaNet Affiliate
Date: 21 Mar 91 06:15:00 GMT

This is to welcome Jerry Driscoll and Liz Anderson to the ParaNet family.
They have been assigned the designation of:

ParaNet ALPHA-ETA(sm)
Calgary, Alberta, Canada
403-273-5697 2400 Baud

Please take a moment to introduce yourselves to the group.

Again, WELCOME!

Michael Corbin
Director

--
Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Kurt Lochner)
Subject: Gravitational magnetism
Date: 20 Mar 91 07:16:43 GMT

In a previous tirade against the laws of physics (grin)
 >
 > From:[e-mail] (John H.Chalmers Jr.)

Oh, btw, thanks for posting this, interesting read this..
 >
 >          Robert Forward, a physicist specializing
 > in gravitational theory and 'hard SF' writer (Dragon's
 > Egg and sequel), has described an antigravity device
 > consisting of a toroidal coil with an ID of about
 > 100 meters.
 >
Kinda big, I'm sure prototyping it will be sensational.
How many miles of what gauge wire?  I'm sure it was
mentioned in the article....
 >
 > If the mass of a neutron star were to flow through the
 > windings of the coil every millisecond, the magnetic

 Not possible.  The constraints of even a superconductor
to handle that many electrons per millisec dictate a
conductor wider than the toroid itself.  That's my
hip-pocket assessment without knowing the mass of the
neutron star involved.

 > analog of the gravitational field ('protational' or
 > gravitational magnetic field) would neutralize
 > gravity in the center of the coil.  The reason for the

It would also wreak destruction of unimaginable proportions

 > enormous masses and velocities required is the low
 > value of the gravitational coupling constant
 > (about 40 orders of magnitude less than the strong
 > nuclear or EM)

Wrong!  40 orders of magnitude places this "reaction"
above Planck energy values, an unexplored region if not
virgin territory by human instrumentation(s) that one
might consider possible billionths of a second after the
creation of the (now reckoned) universe.
10^19 to 10^28 is more likely the region that we could
measure "gravitons" at, if superstring theory is valid.

 > and the low permeability of space to the field.
 >         Physicists at Stanford and elsewhere are
 > planning experiments on a satellite in the next decade
 > to test for the existence of the protational field.

I'll have to look this term up, never heard it before.

 > Given what is known about electrodynamics and the
 > above, I'm rather skeptical about low power toroidal
 > magnetic fields' causing warps in space-time.

Indeed, I'm real concerned that stuff like this is getting
published, which you didn't mention where/what.  But that's
ok man...thanks for typing it out to us for review.
It was a nice attempt at "science fiction" but it doesn't
stand up to observable phenomena, plausible deniability
and my meager peer review as a physics major.

 > However, a working model would go a long way toward
 > convincing me.
 > ---- John
              Me too, John....me too...

Best wishes to you and yours, and thanks for bringing this
to our attentions in ParaNet......go well!

--
Kurt Lochner - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Kurt Lochner)
Subject: Gravitational Magnetism
Date: 20 Mar 91 07:26:36 GMT

In a reply to John at
            violet.berkeley.edu![e-mail]
 >
 >
 > It might be interesting to consider gravity as the
 > resultant of mass and time.
 >
Nope, not a chance, not even a small probability.

--
Kurt Lochner - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Steve Rose)
Subject: Hatonn And The Pleiades
Date: 21 Mar 91 05:24:18 GMT

In a message to Steve Rose <18 Mar 91 14:43> Michael Corbin wrote:

 >> Most probably.  But I bet if ParaNet members were to form a 'seek out
 >> and observe' travel group for various claimants of this phenomenon, as I
 >> assume they have done for UFO sightings...I believe there would be a lot
 >> less Phoenix Journal 'Hatonn' facade types floating about.

 MC> More input.  Suggestions?

Perhaps a travel / observation group...similar to whatever group may go out to
interview witnesses to UFO sightings.  Difference here is the ability to 'plan'
travel in advance, hence being a direct observer-participant, as opposed to
just collecting data after the event(s) take place.  Promote the team as
strictly an observing body, and not one to declare or pass judgement on the
proceedings.  Many camps and 'spiritualist churches' do welcome such a group...
as long as the publicity is not adverse to their normal operations.

What I am *not* advocating is a clandestine operation, in which falsehood
identities or purpose is created to 'infiltrate' any established organization.
 This should be strictly open and above-board from beginning to end.  I am sure
any such undertaking will be conducted in this proper manner, and only wish to
state this for the record.  There are organizations that have done this in the
past and have documented their findings.  I find, though, that they are more
inclined to 'make a name for themselves' with the expense of sensationalizing
their exploits.  THIS SHOULD BE AVOIDED!

Participation should also be conducted without the pretense of any use of
'scientific apparatus' above and beyond the accepted use of any possible video
or audio tapings as well as personal recorded observations.  What turns off a
sitting more than the 'absent-minded professors' with lab-coats...fumbling with
their *PK-Energy meters* and *PSI-Astral scopes*.  Please...most of that
hardware crap is as much of a scam scientifically, than the biggest fakker in
the spirit business could ever hope to be.  I *do* recommend however, the use
of 'low-light enhancing' lens attachments for the recording camera(s) of a
materialization sitting.  Such gear is more commonly referred to as
"Nite-Scopes".  UFO investigators should know full-well their value.    :-)

Again...I am just a laymen and do not proport holding any valid credentials in
the 'spirit' observation field.  My own feelings and personal findings
prejudice me against being even an amateur observer any longer.  I enjoyed the
experiences I had, but do not wish to go into what soured me from continuing
on.  I only hope that fresh new minds will speak out in a willing capacity to
'take up the ball' so to speak.  I certainly hope that an organization such as
ParaNet will help add to our knowledge and findings for everyone to share.



--
Steve Rose - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (John Tender)
Subject: Re: Statements of accepta
Date: 19 Mar 91 05:53:04 GMT


 JT>>      Oh. I thought that since _you_ made the claim that Klass,
 JT>>  Sheaffer and Oberg _actually had made_ definitive statements,
 JT>>  that you also had some _evidence or ready information_ on
 JT>>  which to base that claim.  Sorry, _my mistake_.  (I will,
 JT>>  however, bear this in mind in evaluating your other claims.)

 RM> Your mistaken assumption is that I posted the reference (to Jim
 RM> Speiser, not to you) with the aim of convincing you.  People who
 RM> have a long history of going around posing insinuative
 RM> rhetorical questions, replete with highly selective and
 RM> distortive exceprts from my postings elsewhere just aren't high
 RM> up on my to-be-persuaded list.  Jim, on the other hand, very
 RM> likely has already seen the aforementioned statements -- he's a
 RM> broad and active reader -- and my intent was just to remind him.

     As I wade through this tangled web of lame rationalization, I must
yet remember that when I asked for the references to the material with
which you (and you say Jim also) are all too familiar, you were unable
to supply them. (Jim, if you're there, can you help out here?)

     If you really had no intention of convincing me, or thought that I
was unworthy of convincing, you wouldn't have responded to my inquiry.
It seems my "long history of going around posing insinuative rhetorical
questions, replete with highly selective and distortive exceprts" began
with my last reply, in which I resorted the the despicable and widely
discredited practice of pointing up the truth about your inability to
document a claim.

     I find nothing "distortive" in my "selection" of the issue that
Oberg, Klass, and Sheaffer have made clear and definitive statements
about their criteria for valid evidence of "UFOs". It's an important
topic and is not common knowledge. Your unreasonable irritation stems
from other causes.

 JT>>  I will indeed try to contact the three above individuals.
 RM>
 RM> I doubt you'll find that there's much percentage in it.  Not
 RM> many facile opportunities for cheap shots are likely to result,
 RM> and you might have to expend a little effort along the way.

     I see; asking for information to support a claim is a cheap shot. I
supposes I'se jus to iggnerant to know that. Oh well, perhaps a few
years of training in "skeptical thinking" would set me aright.

     Further, I ask you for documentary references of a claim ~you~
make, your answer is "Good question; I don't got none; ask them!", and
then you express a fear that I might not want to "expend a little effort
along the way."  Good reasoning there, Rick. Firmly grounded. Skeptic
_par excellence_.

... from the purlieus of Pittsburgh
--
John Tender - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (John Tender)
Subject: File Disclaimers
Date: 19 Mar 91 05:29:55 GMT


                   (Continued from Previous message)

 RM>>  I fully disagree.  Sysops have no obligation to justify or
 RM>>  explain their placement of download files on their own systems.
 RM>>  If I were moved to post such an explanation, it would be as
 RM>>  follows:  "Because I damned well felt like it."  That should
 RM>>  more than cover it.

 JT>>      I suppose that this depends on what the sysop decides to
 JT>>  be his "obligation". If one's desire is to present a rational,
 JT>>  objective, and comprehensive overview of a subject, then it is
 JT>>  imperative that rational, objective, and comprehensive
 JT>>  criteria for data presented be made available. If, on the
 JT>>  other hand, one chooses to ignore this obligation and run the
 JT>>  risk (or at least arouse the suspicion) of presenting
 JT>>  half-truths, faulty lines of reasoning, and
 JT>>  conclusions-by-decree, then "because I damned well felt like
 JT>>  it" will indeed suffice.

 RM> If you want to go around and sermonise to some flock of sysops
 RM> concerning their download areas, be my guest, but please forgive
 RM> my absenting myself from your denomination.  I get tired of
 RM> cranls trying to tell sysops what to do with their own property,
 RM> and have low tolerance.

     So that's what it is, a flock of sysops? I've heard worse
appellations for the group.

     I will accept you declination of my interpretation of the
"obligation" of sysops. But I won't stop expressing my opinions on the
subject, just as I hope scientists won't stop trying to convince people
that there should be standards of evidence, freedom of information, and
the right to question all and everything, even though many may also
absent themselves from such "sermons".

 RM> In point of fact, in any event, I was trying to suggest (to the RM>
 other fellow) some less drastic alternatives to his proposal to RM>
 delete the Cooper files.  By contrast, on my own board, I don't RM>
 post disclaimers, nor do I delete text files, nor have I ever RM>
 considered doing so.  I maintain this wide-open policy on RM> my BBS
 for what I regard as an eminently good reason:  Yep, RM> because I
 damned well feel like it.

     That's not a ~reason~ at all, even though I don't necessarily
object to the policy.

     I still don't see what that has got to do with the Cooper files
being representative "of their kind", nor can I see why you made my
omission of this irrelevant material the focus of your reply. It's just
an exercise in obscurantism.



... from the purlieus of Pittsburgh
--
John Tender - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (John Tender)
Subject: Re: File disclaimers
Date: 19 Mar 91 05:38:26 GMT


 JT>>      Maybe I wasn't sufficiently clear. I asked what _you_
 JT>>  meant by "of their kind", information which, at least
 JT>>  according to my way of thinking, cannot be found in the
 JT>>  original source material.

 RM> I referred to the "kind" to which the original poster, to whom I
 RM> was responding in ASK_UFO, had for his own reasons consigned
 RM> them.  Had you included a modicum of the context of the
 RM> discussion, that would have been clear.  The point of my

     First, I moved the message from ASK_UFO since that area recently
restricted its message focus (UFO magazine only), and I wasn't sure this
topic was still sufficiently in-line.

     Second, I quoted only part of the message since I disagreed only
with that part, and I was hoping that you could clarify the point. Here
then is the original post:

***********************************************************************
FROM:    Rick Moen                     Area # 76 (     Para-UFO     )
TO:      Ralph Putman                  MSG # 35, Jan-10-91 8:47am
SUBJECT: Re: An earlier message...

Ralph Putnam to Mike Corbin:

 RP> Anyway, the question is, why do the ParaNet nodes (at least the
 RP> ones I have dialed into) continue to carry the Bill Cooper
 RP> files?  Is there some valid info. in there?  From your (and
 RP> Don's and Vicky's) messsages, Mr. Cooper is a fraud
 RP> and a plagiarist.  Why not dump his files, and extract your
 RP> messages into files, and be done with it?

Dear Ralph --

I find myself in the quite delicious position of speaking up for
Coop.  That is, I favour carrying his files, space permitting.
Why?  Well, just stocking these rambling bits of text (or any
other pieces) does not equate to endorsement of their accuracy or
of the author's reputation.  I don't think I've seen the
particular files you mention (waiting for a disk or two from
Mike), but even if they're _really bad_, they can -- at a minimum
-- be valuable as an example of their kind.

If I were really worried about the impression these things might
make on callers, I might have two UFO file areas:  General and
Sysop's Picks.  General would be "caveat lector" stuff (Wild Bill
and others), in the sysop's humble opinion, while Sysop's Picks
would be those the sysop considers less improbable (modify this
according to your degree of skepticism :-) ).  If I were yet
more concerned, I might put a sysop's disclaimer at the top of
each file.

In more than two years of running my BBS, I have intentionally
deleted only three text files.  Both were solicitation letters
for criminal pyramid schemes.  I do not take kindly to this sort
of upload.  One of these was a repeat offender, after a warning,
and I may be persuing prosecution.

On the whole, I really don't see the harm in stocking Bill Cooper's
files.  Who knows -- they may become rare curios some day.  <grin>

Best Regards,
Rick Moen
Member, CSICOP Electronic Communications Subcommittee
Secretary, Bay Area Skeptics
Hosts of the May 1991 Berkeley CSICOP Conference

... from the purlieus of Pittsburgh
--
John Tender - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



********To have your comments in the next issue, send electronic mail to********
                      'infopara' at the following address:

UUCP  {ncar,isis,boulder}!scicom!infopara
DOMAIN  [e-mail]
ADMIN Address [e-mail]
  {ncar,isis,boulder}!scicom!infopara-request

******************The**End**of**Info-ParaNet**Newsletter************************


                Info-ParaNet Newsletters   Volume I  Number 382

                            Tuesday, March 26th 1991

Today's Topics:

                              Re: Fritterheads(tm)
                                 Re: Bill cooper
                           Re: Philisophical concerns
                                   Rick Redux
                            Re: Statements of accepta
                                 Re: Bill cooper
                               Fireball clippings
                                      Goof
                                 Re: Bill Cooper
                            Re: New Paranet Affiliate
                             Gravitational Magnetism
                            Hello & Have You Heard???
                            Re: New Paranet Affiliate
                      Openmindedness and psychic phenomena
                                   Rick Redux
                            Australian SETI success?
                                   Rick Redux
                                      Ss433
                              Internet Difficulties
                              The mutliation factor

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Rick Moen)
Subject: Re: Fritterheads(tm)
Date: 21 Mar 91 07:25:54 GMT

> "> I've always been strongly in favour of open-mindedness -- as long
> as "> your mind isn't so open that things flutter in and out.
>
> An excellent way to ignore any opinion that doesn't fit your worldview
> without sacrificing your high moral and ethical standards. Sir, I
> salute you.

It could indeed serve as a pretext for such a stance.  If you have any
particular evidence that I am in fact doing so, and are not merely
engaging in a variety of name-calling, I would be interested to hear it.

Until then, happy fluttering! ;-)

Best Regards,
Rick M.

--
Rick Moen - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Rick Moen)
Subject: Re: Bill cooper
Date: 21 Mar 91 07:31:10 GMT

> "> Sorry Rick; but I can't go along with you on that one. The
> "> purpose of the message was not to protect Bill Cooper from
>
> Forgive me for tuning in late, but what did Bill Cooper do to offend
> the powers-that-be? Had I a collection of any author's frowned-upon
> text, I would be disinclined to trash it for any reason short of a
> court order. I'd rather leave it available, with appropriate editoral
> comments--and allow any foolishness or fritterheadedness to reflect on
> the author hirself.

Exactly my position, except that I personally would dispense with the
"appropriate editorial comments".  Still, I wouldn't remark that the
latter is "an excellent way to denigrate any opinion that doesn't fit
your worldview without sacrificing your high moral and ethical
standards".

For that would be a cheap shot, and we wouldn't want that, would we?

Best Regards,
Rick M.

--
Rick Moen - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Rick Moen)
Subject: Re: Philisophical concerns
Date: 21 Mar 91 07:40:23 GMT

> I read your continuing debate with boredom at many points. The reason
> is not what you have stated or in some cases what others propose, but
> because of the nit picking out of your statements, mis-quoting, and
> goal-less attacks on motives or people. (that may have been unclear, I
> meant picking parts out of your statements without concern for the
> whole of the material, then arguing one word instead of a concept)
>
> My answer is in this case: "You can lead a horse to water, but you
> can't teach it to do the back stroke!"
>
> Keep trying Rick!

Thanks!  I have to shake my head at statements like Jim Greenen's that
I "have read enough on this and other BBSs that I should have come to a
conclusion that all these claims of UFO sightings has to merit some
consideration on your part."  That is, of course, exactly what I have
been doing all along, and is wlargely what I am in fact here for.  I
surely haven't gone a large distance out of my way, talking to
UFOlogists and UFO buff, and hubbing for their e-mail, merely in order
to ignore what they have to say.

As they say en Francais, "Incroyable!"

Best Regards,
Rick M.

--
Rick Moen - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Rick Moen)
Subject: Rick Redux
Date: 21 Mar 91 08:02:06 GMT

Hello, folks --

In order to save echo bandwidth, I've decided to change my mind and
admit publicly that I'm really a closed-minded zealot who's here to
attack people for their beliefs, ignore overwhelming evidence that might
serve to undermine my faith in my ideology and divert me from my hidden
agenda, and basically to test how dark the depths of my soul really are.

Since I've now Confessed All, we can regard those subjects as closed
(unless, of course, you really really want to castigate me for the
above, in which case I'll be glad to oblige).

Oh, I almost forgot about my employment as a government disinformation
agent, but that's a story for another message....

Wickedly Yours,
Rick M.

--
Rick Moen - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: Re: Statements of accepta
Date: 23 Mar 91 06:04:00 GMT

->     As I wade through this tangled web of lame
->rationalization, I must
->yet remember that when I asked for the references to the
->material with
->which you (and you say Jim also) are all too familiar, you
->were unable
->to supply them. (Jim, if you're there, can you help out
->here?)

Golly, wish I could, John, but I can't seem to get a handle on what the hell
you guys are arguing about. The rhetoric seems to be getting piled pretty
high here. If you're asking me what Shaeffer, Klass, et al have held out as
criteria for proof of UFO reality, I do have some idea, but the references
would be mostly personal conversations. Will that do? As I posted here
earlier, Shaeffer once told me that he would "take a long look at" any case
that involved "multiple independent photos of the same anomalous object."
Carl Sagan is reportedly looking for a cocktail napkin from on board a UFO.
I *believe* Klass is looking for some kind of official statement from a body
such as the National Academy of Sciences (*if* that is his criteria, I
consider it a neat dodge of the real issue). I have no idea what Oberg would
accept. He does not seem to be in the same boat with the others; he tends to
restrict himself to commenting on those cases which he believes he has
explained, and does not seem bent on extrapolating his explanations to wave
away the entire phenomenon.

As to the rest of the argument, I think both you guys ought to cool it. I
was director of ParaNet at the time Cooper was logging on, and it was my
decision to keep all of his and John Lear's files public, and I commend Rick
for doing the same. *My* reasoning was that it was important for those
people who had not made up their minds on the issue to be given everything
they needed in order to do so. I felt confident that Cooper would simply
hang himself with his own words, but regardless of that, its always been my
feeling that we have nothing to fear from ideas. The good ones should be
presented so that they may be acted on, and the bad ones, so that they may
stand as examples of how NOT to think. I suspect that if Rick kept the files
up because he damn well felt like it, this may be WHY he damn well felt like
it.

Jim

--
Jim Speiser - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Rick Moen)
Subject: Re: Bill cooper
Date: 21 Mar 91 07:21:49 GMT

OK, Jim, for the record, you have bluntly stated that

(1) my intentions are less than honourable
(2) I lobby against deleting Bill Cooper's files because of ulterior
    motives
(3) I'm closed-minded
(4) someone who calls himself a skeptic can't be open-minded

You are perfectly entitled to your opinion on these matters, and I make
a firm policy of never arguing with such views.

Best Regards,
Rick M.

--
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UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (John Hicks)
Subject: Fireball clippings
Date: 20 Mar 91 07:41:01 GMT


  Interesting huh. Note that in the first AP report, the pilots
reported that the object was moving about over NYC. I have a copy of a
later AP report that eliminates the pilots altogether.

                                           jbh

--
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UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Don Ecker)
Subject: Goof
Date: 21 Mar 91 06:06:00 GMT


 > Is she the former Aileen Edwards of Seattle?
 >
 > Jim

Yup.

Don

--
Don Ecker - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Don Ecker)
Subject: Re: Bill Cooper
Date: 21 Mar 91 06:37:00 GMT

Jim;

Excuse me for jumping in about your message to Rick Moen,
but I have to state that as one of the old timers here in
ParaNet, I have "known" Rick for quite some time. Rick can
NOT be accused of being "close" minded, but he does ask
questions. That does not make him a bad guy. Checking my
dictionary skeptic was listed as: n. doubt in absence of
conclusive evidence; and BROTHER does that describe Mr.
Cooper!

As one who did a two part investigation in Mr. Milton Wm.
Cooper, I can tell you first hand that Cooper is at the
forfront of lacking ANY CONCLUSIVE EVIDENCE. As a matter of
fact, several months ago I used the word CHARLATAN in
reference to Cooper, ( and I was being nice to boot ) and
Mr. Moen chided me for the adjective. Skeptic? Yep, Mr.
Moen is that and he uses it in his origin line. Close
minded? No I do not agree. I had a sighting myself, and a
dramatic one at that, and I believe in the possibilty of ET
life. However I to am a SKEPTIC I do not believe in
allowing my mind to be so open that my brains tumble out _ I
may never find them!  GRIN

DON



--
Don Ecker - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Elizabeth Anderson)
Subject: Re: New Paranet Affiliate
Date: 23 Mar 91 00:35:00 GMT

Hello and best regards from Calgary.

Jerry has very kindly asked me to be a co-sysop on his board, Just Talk, so
that I can be the sysop for Paranet - which I nagged him into getting up in
the first place. So, you won't be seeing much of Jerry, though I am sure
you'll be hearing a lot from me!


I am the founder of the Alberta Skeptics, a small but increasing vocal group
with a lot to say. I would say that the group's main concern currently is to
prevent the teaching of creationism in the public schools - hardly a Paranet
topic. However, there is a large new age community in southern Alberta, and
certainly much interest in paranormal subjects. My personal hobby-horse is
satanism, and I had done a great deal of research into the subject. My
degree is in medieval studies, from the University of Toronto, so I feel I
have a good background to work from. UFOs are something I know a fair amount
about, not so much because I am interested especially, but more because of
the 'ancient astronaut' claims. I attended the CSICOP workshop on UFOs in
Tucson last November and had a wonderful time. I look forward to much
interesting discussion.

And I do a great tarot reading too!

Elizabeth

--
Elizabeth Anderson - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Subject: Gravitational Magnetism
Date: 23 Mar 91 03:41:00 GMT

To: violet.berkeley.edu!chalmers
 >  >
 >  >
 >  > It might be interesting to consider gravity as the
 >  > resultant of mass and time.
 >  >
 > Nope, not a chance, not even a small probability.


Why not, Kurt?  Please tell us more!

Clark

--
Clark Matthews - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Subject: Hello & Have You Heard???
Date: 23 Mar 91 18:49:00 GMT


Hello Elizabeth and welcome to ParaNet!

I am hoping you can steer me in the right direction for some
research I'm doing.  Any assistance you could provide off-the-cuff
would be greatly appreciated.

In the Northwest Territories, there's a river called the Nahani
River.  I believe it's just north of Atla or Sask.  Could you tell
me if the river runs through a national park or wildlife preserve,
and if it's accessible by road?  Supposedly it's home to a lot of
Bigfoot. (Bigfeet?)

Ultimately, I'd like to speak to or write any local park rangers or
law enforcement personnel in the area in question.  If you could
just tell me which town or ranger station I should try calling, I'd
really appreciate it.  The people at the Consulate General in
N.Y.C. are greatly amused at my phone calls...

Thanks in advance for any help you can offer, and welcome once
again!

Best,
  Clark

--
Clark Matthews - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: Re: New Paranet Affiliate
Date: 23 Mar 91 21:07:00 GMT


 > Hello and best regards from Calgary.
 >
Hello, and welcome, Elizabeth! Glad to see we're getting more active skeptics
online. I've been bugging Mike Stackpole for years to log in and bat things
back and forth with us - he's the head of the Phoenix Skeptics, and you may
know of him from some of his own studies on Satanism. And of course, Rick
Moen of the Bay Area Skeptics is also with us, though he has now admitted to
being a closed-minded government disinformation agent. <grin>

Look forward to some interesting conversations with you and your comrades in
that neck of the woods.

Jim Speiser

PS: I'm a long-time creation-basher myself, though I agree that this is
probably not the place for it. That's a never-ending argument; here we prefer
to stick to things that, at least in theory, have SOME chance of being
resolved (like....<sheepish grin>...UFOs...?)

--
Jim Speiser - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: gatech!apple.com!well!ddrasin
Subject: Openmindedness and psychic phenomena
Date: 25 Mar 91 00:53:21 GMT

From: gatech!apple.com!well!ddrasin (Dan Drasin)

(I submitted the following last week, but evidently due to your
Domain Address problem you never received it. So here it is again,
with a few minor editorial revisions:)

+ It is not so much that I don't believe that 'channeling' is real,
+ but more, what scientific methods can be applied to study the
+ phenomena?  I was talking with a person the other day who told me that
+ there have been some solid-based scientific research done regarding
+ psychic phenomenon. Does anyone have any information relating
+ scientific research being conducted to validate psychic phenomenon?

Mike, I think you'd agree that whenever anything gets pushed
underground or declared taboo in a society a great deal of folklore
gets generated about how there's 'no evidence' for such-and-such.
This produces more 'religion' (which involves a-priori
preclusiveness, true-belief-based circular reasoning and the
avoidance of uncomfortable revelations) than 'science' (which is
theoretically based upon openmindedness, responsiblity, etc.). Try
proposing the establishment of a procedurally-impeccable
parapsychology department at any major university and see how
quickly the vaunted concept of academic freedom becomes
circumscribed by ignorance and fear.

The Journals of the Society for Psychical Research (Britain) and the
ASPR (US) have been published for many decades, and a perusal of same
should keep any earnest researcher busy for a long time. You also
might check out the recent work done at Princeton that analyzes
decades of experiments by many researchers using random number
generators with psychics under controlled conditions. There is a
conference on the WELL bbs here in the SF Bay Area (415-332-6106)
called the 'fringes' conference. Topic 11 in that conference is
devoted to the 'Princeton PK Review' and would be a good place to
start familiarizing yourself with that material.

You might also check out a book, THE WORLD OF TED SERIOS (*Second*
Edition), by Jule Eisenbud, M.D., (C) 1989, published by McFarland
& Co., Inc, Box 611, Jefferson, NC 28640. It is a fascinating
account of one of the most copiously evidential parapsychological
cases on record. It also contains a scathing account of James
Randi's clumsy attempts to squirm out of his own claims and 'offers'
with regard to this case. This book (not to be confused with the
*first* edition, published in 1967) was published privately and is
in limited circulation, but should be available from the publisher.

You also might check out John Klimo's book on channeling (sorry, the
title escapes me at the moment).



+ I've always been strongly in favour of open-mindedness -- as long as
+ your mind isn't so open that things flutter in and out.

Rick, I've heard variations on this from skeptics for a long time.
It's usually '...as long as your mind isn't so open that your brains
fall out.' Pray tell, Rick, just what does this mean? Just exactly
what are the prescribed limits to openmindedness, and who gets to do
the prescribing for everyone else?

In the end, statements like this (lighthearted though they may
sometimes be) seem to betray a confusion between openmindedness on the
one hand and sloppy science on the other.

This falls into the same category as the statement 'extraordinary
claims require extraordinary proof' -- because (apart from the double-
standard implied here, which science is never supposed to tolerate)
nobody has ever defined what 'ordinary' (and therefore "extra-
ordinary') means. And never will because the definition of what's
'ordinary' evolves constantly. And besides, "ordinariness" is not a
part of scientific method. Never was, and never will be. In science,
openmindedness and procedural integrity take precedence. Everything
else is secondary.

That statement is also frequently used to discourage honest research
into certain subjects -- as if 'proof' were the *first* stage in an
investigation instead of the last. In other words, a (real or
imagined) lack of proof is often used to rationalize avoiding the very
investigation that would be required to develop such proof in the
first place.

If anything, 'extraordinary' claims (assuming one is interested
enogh to follow them up in the first place) require extraordinarily
openiminded, careful and resourceful science. Period.




--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Don Ecker)
Subject: Rick Redux
Date: 24 Mar 91 06:58:00 GMT


 > In order to save echo bandwidth, I've decided to
 > change my mind and admit publicly that I'm really a closed-minded zealot
 > who's here to attack people for their beliefs, ignore overwhelming
 > evidence that might serve to undermine my faith in my ideology and divert
 > me from my hidden agenda, and basically to test how dark the depths of
 > my soul really are.

Ah Ha!  I knew it all along....  I bet you < GASP!! > even
write letters to Phil < GASP > KLASS!! Out with the stake
Mike, we got one to burn!

GRIN

Don

--
Don Ecker - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
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INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: boulder!conncoll.bitnet!gateh
Subject: Australian SETI success?
Date: 25 Mar 91 14:39:42 GMT

From: boulder!conncoll.bitnet!gateh (Gregg TeHennepe)

I saw a couple of queries in the Space digest (as well as a
reference in the RISKs digest) to reports on Australian(?) news
that an Australian radio observatory had received what they thought
were intelligent signals of non-earth origin.  Has anybody else heard
about this, or any possible follow-ups?  There was no response (or
even interest, it seemed) in the Space digest, which I thought
somewhat unusual.

Gregg TeHennepe             | SysAdm, Academic Computing
[e-mail]       | Connecticut College, New London, CT




--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (John Hicks)
Subject: Rick Redux
Date: 25 Mar 91 02:10:00 GMT


 > In order to save echo bandwidth, I've decided to change my mind

  The truth is out! You're really Bill Cooper!  ;-)

                                           jbh

--
John Hicks - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Subject: Ss433
Date: 26 Mar 91 05:00:00 GMT

*** Quoting John Powell to Mark Freel ***
 > In a message to Gregg Gillis <16 Mar 91 12:49> Mark Freel
 > wrote:
 >  MF> This is from _The_Quest_for_SS433_ by David H. Clark
 > (1985)...
 >
 >  MF> _IF_ it had moved 10000 light years in the last six
 > years to the outer
 >  MF> edge of our solar system, a degree in astrophysics would
 > be worth ... ?

10000 light years in 6 years?  I'm not sure how that statement is being used,
but if the author (David Clark) was not trying to be funny, then he has a
serious problem on his hands...  how to explain faster-than-light travel.

What I am confused about is:  SS433 is a stellar object, fully described and
explained in the appropriate scientific journals by professional astronomers
and physicists.  It is not an object entering our own solar system, manned by
reptile creature intent on invading Earth, driven by atomic engines. Why
then, in the face of professional and vastly more educated information, do
some people cling desperately to the idea that this is indeed an alien
spaceship with evil designs on Earth?  I'd say off-hand, you're looking at a
psychological anomaly. . .

Cheers!

--
Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Subject: Internet Difficulties
Date: 26 Mar 91 06:07:00 GMT

Anyone posting an article via Internet during approximately March 20 through March 25 is
encouraged to repost it.  We experienced network difficulties and some of the
articles may have bounced.  We apologize for any inconvenience.

Thanks for your patience and understanding.

Michael Corbin
Director

--
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Subject: The mutliation factor
Date: 26 Mar 91 06:09:00 GMT

There has been some recent interest in the cattle mutilation mystery as it may
apply to the UFO enigma.  Below is a reprint of an article prepared and
contributed to ParaNet by Don Ecker regarding a possible human mutilation
which displayed "classic" markings of those found common in cattle
mutilations.

This file was provided by ParaNet(sm) Information Service
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You may freely distribute this file as long as this header
remains intact.
Contributed by:  Don Ecker, ParaNet Staff Writer
============================================================
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(C) 1991 by Don Ecker.

The Human Mutilation Factor
                   by Don Ecker



In the last forty years of UFO research, one of the most baffling
questions that have plagued researchers has been "Is
the UFO Phenomenon dangerous to humanity?"  Over the years, there
have been numerous cases where the phenomenon has figured into
human deaths, but as a rule, most cases have been officially
ruled accidental.  When speaking of cases where death has
resulted, usually most assume cases where military pilots have
died as a result of "chasing" the phenomenon.  One of the most
famous of these military chases that is discussed when ever the
subject of death and UFOs is raised, is the famous "Mantell
Case".  This case is so well known that I will not discuss it
here, but there are many others.  In one of the less well known
cases, during the mid 1950's, a military jet interceptor was
observed on radar being "absorbed" into a UFO over the Great
Lakes.  No trace of pilot or aircraft was ever found.  In another
case reported in the excellent work "Clear Intent" was the case
of the "Cuban MIG Incident". In this case a Cuban MIG was
locking on his weapons radar when the aircraft exploded in mid*air.
The wing man was certain that the UFO had fired some type
of weapon, but other than the jet exploding, no other smoke,
flame or other obvious weapon firing was observed.

The matter of either overt or covert hostility on the part of
UFOs has always been treated warily by serious researchers.  On
the one hand, if the enigma is hostile, then several questions
must be faced.  What if anything should the powers in authority
tell the public?  Is the government capable of handling a threat
of this type?  Is the public ready to face an issue as
potentially terrifying as a "possible threat from somewhere
else?"  Other than incidents involving military involvement, have
there been cases where civilians have been injured or killed
during some type of UFO encounter?  Is it possible that the
reported cases of UFOs and their occupants abducting unwilling
humans for some type of medical or genetic experimentation could
be true?  Now, if any of this is factual, then what ramifications
do the Human Race face in light of the above?

According to Mr. Phil Imbrogno, during the research that led to
the writing of "NIGHT SIEGE The Hudson Valley UFO Sightings" by
Dr. J. Allen Hynek, Philip Imbrogno, and Bob Pratt, Imbrogno has
stated that on several occasions, Hynek specified that he wanted
no mention of the dozens of human abductions that they had
already uncovered at that time, to be mentioned in the book.
Hynek was afraid of the adverse publicity if word of this aspect
leaked out to the public.  After Hyneks death, Imbrogno stated
publicly on Compuserve and other public forums, facts of
abductions, animal mutilations, and EVEN several cases of
mysterious deaths of humans, that he indicated COULD possibly
be linked to the UFO Phenomenon.

While researching several stories for UFO Magazine, I interviewed
a number of prominent UFOlogists, over the last several months,
and in each case, the question of human deaths, in connection
with animal mutilations, invariably was raised.  Most readers of
this text will be familiar with Mr. John Keel, who many regard as
the last of the Great UFOlogists.  From the earliest days of
modern UFOlogy, Keel has been a force to reckon with.  The author
of numerous books that address various aspects of UFOlogy, and
magazine articles too numerous to mention, Keel has a unique
slant on the subject that most will never experience.  According
to Keel, the phenomenon has always had an unexplained hostility
towards humans, that have led to untold numbers of deaths.  While
Keel will be the first to explain that he rejects the ET
hypothesis, he does not doubt the phenomenon a bit.  In what many
UFOlogists consider as one of Keels best works "The Mothman
Prophecies", E. P. Dutton & Co., Inc. 1975, Keel related report
after report of animal mutilations involving cattle, dogs, horses
and sheep, and also related what were called "vampire killings"
of four humans in Yugoslavia, were the victims were "mutilated
and drained of blood".

After having spoken to John Ford, the Chairman of the Long Island
UFO Network, for a news story for UFO Magazine, I became even
more convinced that the aspect of potential UFO hostility should
be investigated.  Ford relayed a numbing number of animal
mutilations, human disappearances, human abductions, covert
Federal involvement in areas that suffered high numbers of animal
mutilations, and even armed military helicopters that chased UFOs
over civilian communities.  Ford, who is a officer of the Federal
Court system, did investigations into the disappearances of
mostly young adults over a year period, in areas of high UFO
overflights, and after having several personal friends who were
police officers of the local municipalities look into the
situation, came to the conclusion that the facts were being
suppressed.  The reason given was that there was "no need to
panic the public."  Although no iron clad proof can be made for
direct UFO intervention, the circumstances are extremely suspect.

After growing up in an age where the entire human race can be
decimated by nuclear, biological and chemical weapons, the human
race somehow manages to keep slogging on.  I have seen more
people "panicked" over a shortage of gasoline than imminent
nuclear holocaust, yet somehow when the subject of UFOs crop up,
the government doesn't want to panic anyone.  It really makes me
wonder what they know, that I should.  I really don't think that
they are going to talk to anyone soon, as you shall soon see.

<<Continued in next message..>>

--
Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
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******************The**End**of**Info-ParaNet**Newsletter************************


                Info-ParaNet Newsletters   Volume I  Number 383

                           Thursday, March 28th 1991

Today's Topics:

                       The mutilation factor (Conclusion)
                      physics/translation/lost uploads/etc
                      Openmindedness and psychic phenomena
                               Indian has UFO's???
                             Gravitational Magnetism
                          Re: Hello & Have You Heard???
                            Info About Mars Missions
                              Mars Missions Part 2
                               Indian Has Ufo's???
                                  Mar's Mission
                                 Re: Rick Redux
                             Re: Indian has UFO's???
                            Re: Mars Missions Part 2
                                 Hoagland's Mars
                                 Indiana Reports

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Subject: The mutilation factor (Conclusion)
Date: 26 Mar 91 06:10:00 GMT

<<<Continued from previous message>>>

In January, 1989, it came to the attention of the MUFON State
Director of Idaho, Mr. Don Mason, that cattle mutilations had
occurred once again in the southeastern section of Idaho.  After
an investigation by a MUFON investigator, the facts were as
follows.  The animals ( two cattle, same night, but each owned by
different ranchers ) were "somehow" killed, sexual organs removed,
body fluids drained, patches of hide "surgically"
removed.  All the appearances of what is today considered to be a
classic case of animal mutilation.  As of this date ( February
15, 1989 ) the final lab reports are not back yet, but already
the Sheriffs Department has labeled it a "cult killing."  No
tracks, tire or human, around the animals even though it had
just rained, no unusual activity reported by the ranchers that
evening, and one animal was found next to an occupied house.
One of the ranchers admitted that this was the second time he had
been "hit" by the mysterious mutilators.  The last incident had
only been a bit over a year previously, and they were worried
enough that all had their "deer rifle" within easy reach.

After having been personally involved in an investigation of
cattle mutilations as a police officer back in 1982, I was very
familiar with the "cult" theory of perpetrators.  The Idaho
Department of Law Enforcement drags it out every time there is a
new rash of mutilations.  The problem is, and every one is aware
of it, that no one has yet been brought to trial, or arrested yet
for these crimes.  Out here in the west, people know that you are
flirting with a ranchers bullet if you are caught fooling around
with the ranchers cattle.  They are his livelihood, and he will
defend it.  Yet, the mutilations keep occurring, and no one is
any the wiser, or are they?

With the subject of animal mutilations fresh in everyones mind, I
was once again speaking to Don Mason, when he informed me that
the investigator that had been assigned to the above mentioned
case had come across a very mysterious death of a man back in
1979.  According to the report, two hunters in the Bliss and
Jerome area of Idaho had literally stumbled across the nude body
of a man that had been hideously mutilated.  The body was in the
literal middle of nowhere, nude except for a pair of underpants,
his sexual organs had been removed, his lips sliced off, and
several other classic mutilation cuts.  Although he was in very
rugged country, his bare feet were not marked as if he had walked
in that terrain, but yet no other tracks, animal or human were
evident anywhere.  After the police were notified, an intensive
search was mounted, and miles away, the mans possessions were
recovered, yet no one yet knows how the body ended up where it
was found, or even more importantly, what happened to him.  It
should be noted that this area also had over the years, many
unexplained UFO reports and cattle mutilations.

Now I must explain that I had very mixed feelings about whether I
wished to attempt to explore this subject any further, or allow
sleeping dogs to lie.  On the one hand, I wanted more than
anything to discover just what was occurring, and on the other, I
realized that this had the potential to backfire on someone that
disturbed the status quo.  I was familiar with reports of human
abductions and mutilations that had surfaced in the last several
years in reports such as the Lear documents, Grudge 13 reports
and others, but yet I was not sure what I believed, or even if
there was anything to believe.  I ran across a friend that was still
employed with a police department in this area who was a
detective.  I had mentioned to him the recent cattle mutilations,
and what I suspected in the above mentioned case of a human that
had been mutilated.  Scot had also been involved in the last
several years with several cases of mutilations that he had been
called upon to investigate, always with negative results.  He was
as curious about this phenomenon as I was, and since he was still
an active duty police officer, he had access to the department
computer, to access the NCIC system that is maintained in
Washington D. C. by the FBI.  After giving Scot the criteria for
a search of unexplained human deaths, that involved factors of
mutilation, I asked that the search go back to at least 1973,
involving this area of the Northwest.  Scot ( not his real name )
ran the request through the department computer.  As he mentioned
at the time, he had expected to get realms of reports back that
we would have to wade through, to get to the reports that would
be are further study.  Scot ended up requesting that the inquiry be
run back to 1970, and involve not only Idaho, but also Utah,
Nevada, Oregon, and Washington states.  Because of the magnitude
of this search, Scot stated that it would take about one week to
get the results back into his department.  As a side note, for
anyone that is not familiar with the NCIC system, it is a
national data bank for Law enforcement agencies all across the
United States.  It is maintained and controlled by the Federal
Burea of Investigation, at FBI headquarters, in Washington D. C.
On the 14th of February, Scot contacted me in person, and
appeared very troubled.  His exact words were that "something is
really screwy, Don."  "I got the request back from NCIC on
Monday, and there has gotta be something wrong.  They told me
that they had NO unsolved murders at all, zero, that met that
criteria.  THAT ANY FURTHER REQUESTS WILL HAVE TO BE MADE BY
VOICE, TELEPHONE CALL, WITH PROPER AUTHORIZATION.  Somebody is
sitting on something, big as Hell."  I also knew that something
was as screwy as hell.  After all, anybody that has had any
dealing with law enforcement knows about the "Green River Killer"
in Washington state.  This serial killer is credited with at
least 30 to 40 murders of young women, and to this date, the case
is as big a mystery as ever.  Many of the killings showed some
types of mutilation, and if nothing else, at least some of these
homicides should have shown up.

Once more, as a side note, I had been warned by a prominent
UFOlogist, that there was a lid "screwed down tighter than you
would believe in regards to human mutes."  I also was warned that
in order to break through the secrecy, was going to be a long and
sometimes weary job, but that if enough persistence was applied,
then it was possible to get to the bottom of this facet of the
UFO enigma.  Do I think that this can be solved, along with the
rest of the puzzle?  Yes, I do, because I think that the secrecy
can only be maintained for so long, and then no longer.  I also
believe very strongly that only if the entire UFO community works
in concert will this be accomplished, and the infighting and arguments
MUST CEASE for the good of us all.

On the ParaNet system and on Compuserve, I wrote and uploaded a
file entitled LIGHT.TXT, and in UFO Magazine Vol. 3, No. 5 I
called for a UFO summit to be held in order to get the UFO
community organized and to present a unified front.  Only by a
unified front, and calling for Congressional hearings, will this
lid ever get torn off, and the truth that is suppressed be
brought to the light of day.  Any help from the members will be
greatly appreciated, and I can be reached at ParaNet RHO at the
following number: 1)208)338)9187.
Also I can be reached on Compuserve by EMail, and my user number
is: 74270,3360.  Anyone with ANY INFORMATION is requested to
contact me at the above addresses as soon as possible.  The
secrecy game has gone on long enough.  It is past time to get to
the bottom of this.  Forty years IS LONG ENOUGH.

Don Ecker

END

PARANET FILE NAME:  HUMMUTE.TXT

--
Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



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From: boulder!violet.berkeley.edu!chalmers
Subject: physics/translation/lost uploads/etc
Date: 26 Mar 91 14:53:13 GMT

From: boulder!violet.berkeley.edu!chalmers (John H. Chalmers Jr.)

RE Kurt Lochner's comments of 3/25/91: it may have not
been clear in my original upload, but the gravitational magnetic
field is theorized to be produced by accelerated masses and is only
an analog of the EM magnetic field. Forward's General Relativistic
anti-gravity reactor is meant as an example of why I consider
space-warps and anti-gravity devices to be improbable with human scale
technology. Neither he nor I consider them very possible.
 The toroid must be wound with a hollow tube as it is a
stellar mass of nuclear density , not electrons, that has to flow
through it. I appreciate your point about the Planck mass, but
I believe I am right that the gravitational coupling constant is
38 or 40 ord mag's less than that of the EM (or Strong Nuclear force)
and the permeability of space is very low to the g field, so very
large moving masses are necessary.
 My point was that this is real physics fearlessly taken to the
extreme limits of extrapolation and it still does not make basement
space-warps and anti-grav devices plausible.
 One more point: Kurt's reply implies that I might think
'_gravity is a resultant of space and time._' I didn't respond to this
statement when originally made by another member on the net because I
don't understand what it means. I follow the orthodox view that
gravity is due to the curvature of space-time and that it should be
formalizable as a relativistic QM theory involving the exchange
of spin-2 gravitons.
 New Subject: I'll be happy to translate occasional interesting
articles, but my time is somewhat limited, despite my interest in
the subject matter. Also, the polish and probably the accuracy of the
translations will depend on the time I can spend on them. I'm not a professional
translator, however, but I can and occasionally do
read materials in my field in French, Italian, and German.
 BTW, I have a couple of uploads lost in the net somewhere.
One was a questionnaire from Mike and the other was
about a recent 'New Age and Truth about UFO's' conference in
San Diego. I hope they will eventually surface as I didn't save
the original texts  --- John




--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: Openmindedness and psychic phenomena
Date: 26 Mar 91 15:43:00 GMT


 >
 > You might also check out a book, THE WORLD OF TED SERIOS (*Second*
 > Edition), by Jule Eisenbud, M.D., (C) 1989, published by McFarland
 > & Co., Inc, Box 611, Jefferson, NC 28640. It is a fascinating
 > account of one of the most copiously evidential parapsychological
 > cases on record. It also contains a scathing account of James
 > Randi's clumsy attempts to squirm out of his own claims and 'offers'
 > with regard to this case. This book (not to be confused with the
 > *first* edition, published in 1967) was published privately and is
 > in limited circulation, but should be available from the publisher.

Dan:

I loved the rest of your message, but could you encapsulate for us just how
Eisenbud overcomes the "serios" charge <groan!> that Serios used a "gizmo" to
create the "psychic photos"? It was my understanding that whenever Serios was
persuaded (usually with great difficulty) to give up the gizmo (a cylinder in
which it was alleged he secreted small photographic slides), that he was
consistently unable to "perform".

Jim

--
Jim Speiser - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



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From: [e-mail] (Shing)
Subject: Indian has UFO's???
Date: 26 Mar 91 23:15:56 GMT

I've heard that southern Indiana is a hot spot for UFO activity.  I'am
from Tennessee myself, so my experiences in southern Indiana history is
very limited.  The UFO information I've heard is just hearsay. Are
there any hardcopies?
--
Shing - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Kurt Lochner)
Subject: Gravitational Magnetism
Date: 25 Mar 91 08:56:56 GMT

You asked....
 >  >  >
 >  >  > It might be interesting to consider gravity as the
 >  >  > resultant of mass and time.
 >  >  >
 >  > Nope, not a chance, not even a small probability.
 >
 > Why not, Kurt?  Please tell us more!
 >
Because of the orders of magnitude (ie: 10's places)
difference between the intrinsic energy values at the
atomic/subatomic levels.  Between gravity and matter,
there's a difference of 10^19 electron volt ( eV ).

Suggested reading:  Gravity, an Old Man's Toy
                    by A. Zee

Great reading, physics in plain olde english and proper
explainations as to why gravity has nothing to do with
the "spatio-temporal" effects of mass.

--
Kurt Lochner - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



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From: [e-mail] (Elizabeth Anderson)
Subject: Re: Hello & Have You Heard???
Date: 27 Mar 91 00:52:00 GMT

Hello again, Clark!


Here's some poop on the Nahhani National Park. Established 1972; World
Heritage Site. 120 species of bird; 32 of mammal. River - 320 kms; park area
4700 kms. Hot springs and Viriginia Falls, 100 m deep. Ice caves.

Nearest town is Fort Simpson, NWT. Your best bet would be to write to the
Fort Simpson Chamber of Commerce, Fort Simpson, NWT, Canada and ask for
information.

Personally, I find the stuff about bigfoot/feets being there kinda hard to
believe - there are not a lot of people up there to report things, and the
phenomenon seems to be human-centred.


I looked at some maps - no roads. Hope this helps.



Elizabeth


P.S. Great stories about a lost gold mine and headless prospectors, though!

--
Elizabeth Anderson - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
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From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Subject: Info About Mars Missions
Date: 27 Mar 91 10:39:00 GMT


 * Forwarded from "Fido UFO Echo"
 * Originally from Gregg Gillis
 * Originally dated 03-22-91 18:00

I had read a post a while ago on this echo about how mysterious it was that
several Mars missions had failed unexpectedly... and how that might be signs of
'alien' tamperings (or so it was sort of suggested).  Well, I have a list of
recent Mars missions listed here....   look and draw your own conclusions.
Alien 'tamperings' or just plain machine failure.....
Reference:  'Return to the Red Planet' by Eric Burgess, Columbia University
        Press, ISBN: 0-231-06942-1, (C) 1990.  p. 39.

Name        Origin       Launch          Comments
----------------------------------------------------------------------- 'no
 no name     USSR      Oct 10 1960       FAILED at launch
 no name     USSR      Oct 14 1960       FAILED at launch
 no name     USSR      Oct 24 1962       FAILED in Earth orbit  MARS 1
 no name     USSR      Nov  1 1962       Lost communications
 no name     USSR      Nov  4 1962       FAILED in Earth orbit  Mariner 3   USA
 no name     USSR      Nov  5 1964       FAILED at launch
 Mariner 4   USA       Nov 28 1964       * First pictures of Mars
 Zond 2      USSR      Nov 30 1964       Lost communications
 Zond 3      USSR      Jul 18 1965       Lost communications
 Mariner 6   USA       Feb 24 1969       * Many pictures of Mars
 Mariner 7   USA       Mar 27 1969       * Many pictures of Mars
 no name     USSR      mar 27 1969       FAILED at launch
 Mariner 8   USA       May  8 1971       FAILED at launch
 KOSMOS 419  USSR      May 10 1971       FAILED at launch
 MARS 2      USSR      May 19 1971       Lander FAILED
 MARS 3      USSR      May 28 1971       Orbiter worked 3 months, lander
                                         FAILED after 20 seconds.

Continued....

--
Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Subject: Mars Missions Part 2
Date: 27 Mar 91 10:39:00 GMT


 * Forwarded from "Fido UFO Echo"
 * Originally from Gregg Gillis
 * Originally dated 03-22-91 18:09



 Mariner 9    USA     May 30 1971     * Many pictures of Mars
 MARS 4       USSR    Jul 21 1973     FAILED to orbit but returned photos
 MARS 5       USSR    Jul 25 1973     FAILED to orbit more than 10 days
 MARS 6       USSR    Aug  5 1973     Lander CRASHED
 MARS 7       USSR    Aug  9 1973     Lander MISSED Mars by 808 miles
 VIKING 1     USA     Aug 20 1975     * worked great!
 VIKING 2     USA     Sep  9 1975     * worked great!
 Phobos 1     USSR    Jul  7 1988     Command Error turned antenna away from
                                      Earth - all communications lost.
 Phobos 2     USSR    Jul 12 1988     Contact lost 2 days from orbit.

 My apologies to SYSOPS and the Echo Moderator for this length, but I thought
 it might be interesting and useful in determining the possibilities of
 'extra-terrestrial' tampering with our planetary probes.

 From what I can see... the trend is FOR A MISSION TO FAIL.  Of the 17 USSR
 missions, only 2 might be considered partially successful.  That doesn't
 sound like tampering by aliens... sounds like poor equipment instead.
 And, often, we take for granted that 'we ought to be able' to easily send
 a probe up there..   well folks, try it yourself and then decide how
 likely it really is for a mission of your own to fail.

 Cheers!

--
Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



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From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Subject: Indian Has Ufo's???
Date: 27 Mar 91 10:44:00 GMT


 > I've heard that southern Indiana is a hot spot for UFO activity.  I'am
 > from Tennessee myself, so my experiences in southern Indiana history is
 > very limited.  The UFO information I've heard is just hearsay. Are
 > there any hardcopies?

Indiana has had a good history of sightings that go back to the 50s.  There
are some references to sightings mentioned in Len Stringfield's book,
Situation Red.

BTW, we prefer that you use your real name here instead of the alias.  It
makes things a bit more personal and friendly.

Thanks,

Mike

--
Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Subject: Mar's Mission
Date: 27 Mar 91 10:45:00 GMT

Could someone provide further information on the previous postings concerning
the failures experienced with Mars-related missions?

Thanks,

Mike

--
Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
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INTERNET: [e-mail]



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From: [e-mail] (John Cockrell)
Subject: Re: Rick Redux
Date: 27 Mar 91 17:47:00 GMT

Well, thank God you finally brought that out into the open!<grin>. I've
been reading the ongoing battle between all of you people and it just
ocurred to me that it seems a shame that, Heaven forbid anyone should
have an actual opinion about something. Everyone seems afraid of giving
their gut feelings on a subject in fear of "offending" the other party,
with the exception of you to a degree. I mean, I'll come right out and
say it, I THINK BILL COOPER IS A COMPLETE FRAUD AND APPEARS TO HAVE
SERIOUS NEUROTIC PROBLEMS TO BOOT, AND YET I CONSIDER MYSELF QUITE
OPENMINDED ON THE SUBJECT OF UFOS! I've had 2 ce1k's but I must side
with you on the great majority of your views. I'm really surprised at
the amount of obviously, unmistakeably foolish theories presented on
what I thought was a more serious board than I thought. Now I guess
it's up to the powers that be to decide if I'm "flaming" Cooper and bar
me for eternity from this board, but it is my honest opinion, based
upon my personal research into this particular phenomenon, and if I try
to call in the future and find my login inactivated, that would smack
of a certain lack of openmindedness...
                                                                Just
Wonderin',
                                J.C.
--
John Cockrell - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
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INTERNET: [e-mail]



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From: [e-mail] (Jim Graham)
Subject: Re: Indian has UFO's???
Date: 28 Mar 91 03:25:11 GMT

* Message sent by Shing on 26 Mar 91 to All:

 >I've heard that southern Indiana is a hot spot for UFO activity.

Since you are familiar with the Bloomington, IN area, you might find it
interesting to note that the late Frank Edwards, in his book "Flying Saucers
- Serious Business" documents a case of a sighting in none other than
Bloomington.

To quote a small portion:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Many of the witnesses whom I have personally interviewed about their
sightings reports of UFO's have mentioned both the buzzing and the apparent
heat wave effect."

"Among them was a group of four boys who in 1956 reported to police in
Bloomington, Indiana, that they had been fishing in an abandoned quarry on
the northwest side of that city, and that about 3 o'clock in the morning they
had been awakened by a great buzzing sound accompanied by a blinding white
light.  They had jumped up in time to see a circular object of dazzling
whiteness moving overhead very slowly.  It was so bright that they could
detect no shape to it through the glare.  It crossed the quarry pit in which
they were fishing and slowly descended among some sycamore trees near a stone
mill.  The boys ran around the quarry and kept the mikll between themselves
and the blinding light.  When they got up courage enough to venture out onto
the railroad tracks beside the mill, they could see that the object was only
about fifteen feet above the ground and that it was directly above the
convergence of two railroad switch tracks, about one hundred feet from the
mill itself.  The boys could feel heat when the light struck them, but there
was no sound while the thing hovered.  After a couple of minutes of this, the
thing emitted a tremendous whine and hum--or "buzzing"--as two of the boys
said, and then rose straight up until it was out of sight.  The four boys
then ran all the way to the police station, about two miles away, to report
what they had seen."

"I questioned them on the day following the report and they took me to the
scene.  There I found that the night watchman at the mill had seen both the
object and the boys, but had not reported it for fear of ridicule.  I also
found that, at the point where the boys said the object had hovered over the
rails, the trees were seared on the sides facing the clearing, but not on any
other side.  The leaves which would have been exposed to heat had there been
an object there such as described were, indeed, withered and dying."

"Could this have been due to heat from a locomotive moving freight cars to
and from the mill?  The watchman said that such could not have been the case,
since the mill had been closed several months, and he pointed out that the
rust on the rails clearly supported this statement."

"Bloomington police had the boys involved in this case examined by a
psychiatrist from Indiana University two days after the reported incident.
The psychiatrist reported to police that he could not explain what the boys
had seen, but he firmly believed that they were telling the truth about their
experience."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

After reading this story, it is clear that there is a lot of information
here.  In fact, I have a pretty good idea exactly where this sighting
occurred.

I can think of at least 4 stone mills in the area, but only two fit the
description geographically.

Additionally, it was supposedly reported to the police.  Therefore, records
must exist.

This should be easily verifiable.



Regards,
-Jim Graham

--
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Graham)
Subject: Re: Mars Missions Part 2
Date: 28 Mar 91 03:46:16 GMT

* Message sent by Michael Corbin on 27 Mar 91 to All:
 > From what I can see... the trend is FOR A MISSION TO FAIL.  Of the
 >17 USSR
 > missions, only 2 might be considered partially successful.  That
 >doesn't
 > sound like tampering by aliens... sounds like poor equipment instead.
 > And, often, we take for granted that 'we ought to be able' to easily
 >send
 > a probe up there..   well folks, try it yourself and then decide how

I thought about this too, Mike.

There's just one pin in the hiney-bone that I can think of though.

If I recall, the Soviets have had quite a bit of success with their Venus
probes (correct me if I'm wrong).

Granted, the distances are different, Venus is an inner planet and Mars is an
outer planet, thus necessitating different methods for achieving planetary
orbit, but the technology is basically the same.

Any thoughts?

-Jim Graham

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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Houston Mayer)
Subject: Hoagland's Mars
Date: 24 Mar 91 01:44:17 GMT

I have recieved a badly formatted letter from Alan Shawn Feinstein Associates,
Cranston RI 02905 telling of a release that explains why the Jan 6th NASA
briefing was cancelled.  The letter tells me that this was quite a revelation,
and tries to sell stamps.  If anyone knows whats going on, let me know.  I'm
so cornfused.

--
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (sm)
Subject: Indiana Reports
Date: 28 Mar 91 06:05:00 GMT

Here is a news clipping regarding a sighting in Indiana.

This file was provided by ParaNet(sm) Information Service
and its network of international affiliates.
You may freely distribute this file as long as this header
remains intact.
Contributed by:
============================================================
For further information on ParaNet(sm), contact:
Michael Corbin
ParaNet Information Service
P.O. Box 928
Wheatridge, CO  80034-0928
or
Netmail 1:104/422
============================================================

UFOS, ODD LIGHTS REPORTED OVER CULVER

News-Sentinel, Fort Wayne, Indiana - November 19, 1990

     CULVER  (AP)  -- Reported sightings of  unidentified  bright
lights  in  the sky have dozens of residents in this  small  town
thinking about close encounters, possibly of the third kind.
     Since  early  October, talk has centered  on  strange  light
patterns hovering above the town's landscape in northern Indiana,
12 miles southwest of Plymouth in Marshall County.
     Melanie Wagner said she has seen lights about three or  four
times  a  week,  usually around 8:15  p.m.  while  driving  along
Indiana 10, a desolate country road.  She said she first saw  the
lights October 4 and has been seeing them every clear night since
then.
     "I've seen lights suspended in the sky, then go up and down,
and go in all directions," Wagner said.  "I've seen them turn off
all  their lights and appear to have disappeared.  And then  turn
them back on several hundred feet across the sky."
     Wagner  said  she  has seen four  to  five  different  light
patterns,  but that the most common is a triangle-shaped.   Other
people have reported "bow ties" and circular patterns.
     Fred Karst, editor of the Culver Citizen, said his newspaper
has   received   "quite  a  number  of  calls"   about   possible
unidentified flying objects in recent weeks.  He said he even saw
some  strange  lights in the sky the evening of  October  4,  the
night of Wagner's first sighting.
     "I don't know whether it was a UFO or not, but at the  time,
I  thought it was a meteor," he said.  "It descended in  the  sky
above me down toward the horizon.
     "I  didn't  attach any greater significance to  it  until  I
started  hearing  other people had been seeing  different  things
that same night."
     While   some  people  speculate  the  lights  are   military
aircraft, officials at Grissom Air Force Base, two counties south
of Culver, say that's not possible.
     "Nothing that they (citizens) describe meets the description
of  what we would be flying out here," said Lt. Bill Harrison,  a
public information officer with Grissom.  He said the base  flies
KC-135  strato  tankers  (similar  to  a  Boeing  707)  and  A-10
Thunderbolt II attack aircraft.
     Capt. Cathi Kiger of the Indiana National Guard said  flares
are  often used for training exercise and on ranges  when  firing
artillery,  "but  I can't find anything that we might  have  done
that would have contributed to these lights."
     Police  Chief  Jim Buroughs of nearby Argos said  there  are
lots of "rumors on the streets, but I haven't seen anything yet."
     Gary  Flagg, a security guard from Argos, said he  has  seen
something -- and often.
     He said he has been keeping a log since he first spotted the
lights  March 7.  He was driving to work at 9:45 p.m.,  he  says,
when he saw a white, triangular-shaped light pattern.
     "I  just stopped on 17th Road (in Marshall County)  and  got
out of the car and watched," he said.
     "That  one was about 500 feet over the top of the  car,"  he
said, reading from his log.  "It moved real slow, extremely slow.
I don't even know how it stayed in the air."
     Flagg didn't report the sighting to police, but did  confide
in his wife.
     Then on October 3 and 5, he was driving with his family when
the  triangle-shaped  lights appeared again.  His  sister,  Cindy
Flagg, a preschool teacher who describes herself as a  "skeptic,"
also saw them.
     "There  was a triangular thing going over.  It had three  or
four  lights....It  was  going really slowly  and  there  was  no
sound," she said.
     A  common  place to watch has been the Poplar  Grove  United
Methodist Church and cemetery, located along Indiana 10.

END

PARANET FILE NAME: 111990IN.UFO

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********To have your comments in the next issue, send electronic mail to********
                      'infopara' at the following address:

UUCP  {ncar,isis,boulder}!scicom!infopara
DOMAIN  [e-mail]
ADMIN Address [e-mail]
  {ncar,isis,boulder}!scicom!infopara-request

******************The**End**of**Info-ParaNet**Newsletter************************


                Info-ParaNet Newsletters   Volume I  Number 384

                             Monday, April 1st 1991

Today's Topics:

                        Sheriff's Deputy Denied Promotion
                                 Re: Bill Cooper
                                 Re: Bill Cooper
                                 Hoagland's Mars
                        Sheriff's Deputy Denied Promotion
                            Subscription termination
                            Re: Statements of accepta
                                 Re: Bill Cooper
                                 Re: Bill Cooper
                                Fcc Modem Charge
                                    MODEM TAX
                                  Mail Problems
                              Re: Fcc Modem Charge
                              Re: Fcc Modem Charge

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: Sheriff's Deputy Denied Promotion
Date: 28 Mar 91 07:45:00 GMT

I've just learned that a sheriff's deputy in Tucson, who also happens to be
MUFON State Section Director for Pima County, has been denied a promotion
within the department due to his active interest in Ufology. Apparently Hard
Copy is sending a camera crew to cover the case of Bob Dean, long-time
member of the now-defunct APRO and now an investigator for MUFON. Allegedly
Dean's lawyer taped a statement from the sheriff, who promoted a supposedly
less-qualified deputy instead of Dean, due to Dean's belief in flying
saucers.

T'will be interesting to see how Hard Copy covers this one.

Jim

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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Tyson Mitchiner)
Subject: Re: Bill Cooper
Date: 26 Mar 91 01:38:00 GMT


 > that, and I believe in the possibilty of ET life. However I
 > to am a SKEPTIC I do not believe in allowing my mind to be so
 > open that my brains tumble out _ I may never find them!  GRIN
 >
 > DON

(GASP)

If I gather as much information as I can on this subject, my brains
will.. will..  ex-explode?


You know, I never can understand the "Dont allow too much
information in or your brain will pop out" concept.  Our mind
supposedly has unlimited storage capacity.

I don't care about skepticism.. I don't care about gullibilism.  All
that seems logical is that since I have a curiousity as to what
those sightings may be (I will not conclude they are aliens.  They
may be U.S. secret planes, a freak of nature, whatever.)  I do not
have enough information to conclude that those sightings are hoaxes,
and I do not have enough information to conclude what exactly UFO's
are (NOTE: *UNIDENTIFIED* FLYING OBJECT, not aliens.).  So, it would
be rather illogical of me to conclude anything until I have
sufficient information to make a conclusion.

Since my mind has unlimited storage capacity (at least there has
been no real evidence to the contrary), I'll gather as much
information I can to piece together the puzzle.

                                Tyson
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Greenen)
Subject: Re: Bill Cooper
Date: 26 Mar 91 14:10:01 GMT


 DE> Jim;
 DE>
 DE> Excuse me for jumping in about your message to Rick Moen,
 DE> but I have to state that as one of the old timers here in
 DE> ParaNet, I have "known" Rick for quite some time. Rick can
 DE> NOT be accused of being "close" minded, but he does ask
 DE> questions. That does not make him a bad guy. Checking my
 DE> dictionary skeptic was listed as: n. doubt in absence of
 DE> conclusive evidence; and BROTHER does that describe Mr.
 DE> Cooper!
 DE>
 DE> As one who did a two part investigation in Mr. Milton Wm.
 DE> Cooper, I can tell you first hand that Cooper is at the
 DE> forfront of lacking ANY CONCLUSIVE EVIDENCE. As a matter of
 DE> fact, several months ago I used the word CHARLATAN in
 DE> reference to Cooper, ( and I was being nice to boot ) and
 DE> Mr. Moen chided me for the adjective. Skeptic? Yep, Mr.
 DE> Moen is that and he uses it in his origin line. Close
 DE> minded? No I do not agree. I had a sighting myself, and a
 DE> dramatic one at that, and I believe in the possibilty of ET
 DE> life. However I to am a SKEPTIC I do not believe in
 DE> allowing my mind to be so open that my brains tumble out _
 DE> I may never find them!  GRIN
 DE>
 DE> DON
 DE>

No problem in jumping in, Don. But didn't I see you on stage with
the 4 uninvited guest in Las Vegas and wasn't Uncle Milty one of
them?  ---GRIN---. Now, If you had a dramatic sighting (and I also
had one) wouldn't you have the tendency to throw all skeptism out
and look toward the reasons of who, how, what and where questions? I
did that many years ago and now I am looking for the answers to
those questions.
   You mention that you are skeptic but skeptic of what? If you were
refering to Mr. Cooper, you have good reason but to the existence of
aliens visiting this planet, you should not have any doubt. I have
had many discussions with Rick on the BBS and got the feeling that
what ever you or anybody said he had a swamp gas answers to your
questions or quoted the amazing Randy guy. Maybe Rick has change his
mind since reading these echos and now might believe that maybe
something might be valid to these storys. I hope so because the real
investigation has many unanswered questions.
          73's     ---Jim---
--
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Subject: Hoagland's Mars
Date: 28 Mar 91 20:29:00 GMT


 > I have recieved a badly formatted letter from Alan Shawn Feinstein
 > Associates, Cranston RI 02905 telling of a release that explains why the
 > Jan 6th NASA briefing was cancelled.  The letter tells me that this was
 > quite a revelation, and tries to sell stamps.  If anyone knows whats
 > going on, let me know.  I'm so cornfused.

I just received a review of copy of "Hoagland's Mars" which I am going to
review for ParaNet.  I will get you some information in a couple of days.  The
video is impressive, however I cannot comment on it yet without going further
into the review.

Mike

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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Subject: Sheriff's Deputy Denied Promotion
Date: 28 Mar 91 20:29:00 GMT


 > I've just learned that a sheriff's deputy in Tucson, who also happens to
 > be MUFON State Section Director for Pima County, has been denied a
 > promotion within the department due to his active interest in Ufology.
 > Apparently Hard Copy is sending a camera crew to cover the case of Bob
 > Dean, long-time member of the now-defunct APRO and now an investigator
 > for MUFON. Allegedly Dean's lawyer taped a statement from the sheriff,
 > who promoted a supposedly less-qualified deputy instead of Dean, due to
 > Dean's belief in flying saucers.

Can you cover it for ParaNet?

Mike

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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: Subscription termination
Date: 28 Mar 91 15:39:00 GMT


 > Please terminate my subscription to the Paranet Newsletter.
 > Although I have found some of the postings to be of interest,
 > particularly those of sightings and information thereto,
 > I find the bickering and arguing to be a waste of my time, counter-
 > productive, and uninteresting, to boot.
 > I just don't have the time to go through all that to get to the
 > postings I consider valuable.

Can someone please tell me the name of a non-technical echo I can check into,
that DOESN'T feature bickering and arguing?  Personally I think there's more
bickering on that supposed bastion of gentlemanly discourse, the FIDO SCIENCE
echo, than there is here....

Jim

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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (John Tender)
Subject: Re: Statements of accepta
Date: 28 Mar 91 05:51:50 GMT

->>material with
->>which you (and you say Jim also) are all too familiar, you
->>were unable
->>to supply them. (Jim, if you're there, can you help out
->>here?)

 JS> Golly, wish I could, John, but I can't seem to get a handle on
 JS> what the hell you guys are arguing about. The rhetoric seems to
 JS> be getting piled pretty high here. If you're asking me what
 JS> Shaeffer, Klass, et al have held out as criteria for proof of
 JS> UFO reality, I do have some idea, but the references would be
 JS> mostly personal conversations. Will that do? As I posted here

     You found the pony.

     I am looking for statements they have committed to print and public
distribution; if no single definitive statements are available, then
maybe a few relevant citations. If you have some files of personal
conversations, I'm interested but I'd rather have "official" statements
in their own words.

     Such statements would be quite valuable. It would at least show how
competent these guys are as scientists (assuming they would actually
write their own stuff) as opposed to propagandists.

 JS> As to the rest of the argument, I think both you guys ought to
 JS> cool it. I was director of ParaNet at the time Cooper was
 JS> logging on, and it was my decision to keep all of his and John
 JS> Lear's files public, and I commend Rick for doing the same.
 JS> *My* reasoning was that it was important for those people who
 JS> had not made up their minds on the issue to be given everything
 JS> they needed in order to do so. I felt confident that Cooper
 JS> would simply hang himself with his own words, but regardless of
 JS> that, its always been my feeling that we have nothing to fear
 JS> from ideas....

     I never said Rick or anyone should delete any files. I did say that
if we are going to categorize these files, as "good" or "bad" or
"Cooper-like" etc., we should have explicitly stated (as opposed to
implicitly assumed) ~reasons~ for doing so. I opposed the idea that such
file deletions should be made at the whim of a sysop. This is both
consistent with and required of a scientific approach to the UFO
phenomena.

     When Rick, a member of the Bay Area Skeptics and CSICOP, evaded
this issue so persistently it merely reinforced a pattern I've seen in
skeptics before; using science when it is convenient, and ignoring it
otherwise.



 ... from the purlieus of Pittsburgh
--
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Don Ecker)
Subject: Re: Bill Cooper
Date: 29 Mar 91 04:41:00 GMT

I said:

 >  > that, and I believe in the possibilty of ET life. However I
 > > to am a SKEPTIC I do not believe in allowing my mind to be so
 > > open that my brains tumble out _ I may never find them!  GRIN

What I meant was - - - I do not except just anything I hear
until such time as I have the time to conduct my own
research into the question. I DID NOT MEAN
THAT I DISBELIEVE EVERYTHING I HEAR, BUT AS MUCH AS I HATE
TO SAY IT, THE WILDER CLAIMS BY NECESSITY MUST BE
RESEARCHED TO THE Nth DEGREE. For example, Milty Coopers
claim now that the "aliens" are demons, the Government is
going to round up all the abductees and put them into
concentration camps, and other assorted Bull of that type.

Tyson said:

 > (GASP)
 >
 > If I gather as much information as I can on this
 > subject, my brains will.. will..  ex-explode?
 >
 > much information in or your brain will pop out"
 > concept.
 > Our mind  supposedly has unlimited storage capacity.

Yea Tyson, that may be, but still, that does not mean that
you don't question, and research. Do you believe EVERYTHING
you hear?  If so, I got this really GREAT car that I am
selling, and BOY* * * can YOU BUY it CHEAP. You send me a
check, I send you the papers-----OK?

 > I don't care about skepticism.. I don't care about
 > gullibilism.  All that seems logical is that since I
 > have a curiousity as to what those sightings may be (I
 > will not conclude they are aliens.  They may be U.S.
 > secret planes, a freak of nature, whatever.)  I do not
 > have enough information to conclude that those
 > sightings are hoaxes, and I do not have enough
 > information to conclude what exactly UFO's are (NOTE:
 > *UNIDENTIFIED* FLYING OBJECT, not aliens.).  So, it
 > would be rather illogical of me to conclude anything
 > until I have sufficient information to make a
 > conclusion.

Thats right, so just where do we disagree?



 > Since my mind has unlimited storage capacity (at least
 > there has been no real evidence to the contrary), I'll
 > gather as much information I can to piece together the
 > puzzle.
 >

And to think I thought I was speaking in a vacuum.

Don

--
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Don Ecker)
Subject: Re: Bill Cooper
Date: 29 Mar 91 04:53:00 GMT

Jim Greenen said:

 > No problem in jumping in, Don. But didn't I see you on
 > stage with the 4 uninvited guest in Las Vegas and
 > wasn't Uncle Milty one of them?  ---GRIN---.

June of 1989. Yep, John Lear, then the MUFON State Director
hosted the MUFON Conference, and he invited me to speak on
my research involving mutilations. What does that have to do
with the above?

 > Now, If you had a dramatic sighting (and I also had one)
 > wouldn't you have the tendency to throw all skeptism
 > out and look toward the reasons of who, how, what and
 > where questions?

No. I would first attempt to see if there was an explanation
in prosaic terms. Even though I had a sighting that has
never been explained, I am too aware of other peoples
sightings that WERE explained.

 >    You mention that you are skeptic but skeptic of
 > what? If you were refering to Mr. Cooper, you have
 > good reason but to the existence of aliens visiting
 > this planet, you should not have any doubt.

Ah ha, but that is it. We do not KNOW that aliens are
visiting here. I may suspect, I may "feel it" but I do not
know, and I would venture a guess that no one I know, TRULY
knows that aliens are here. What we have at this point is a
strong working hypothesis that this is the case. However, if
you KNOW, and CAN PROVE IT, you are probably on your way to
your first million.  The catch is, PROVE IT.

What started this conversation however, if I recall, is the
fact that although Moen is a skeptic, he had Cooper Crap on
his board. Well, the First Admendment is still in effect,
regardless of what Cooper claims is going on and Moen is the
Sysop of his BBS, and he has not censored it, so what was it
that got you all fired up?


Don

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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Subject: Fcc Modem Charge
Date: 29 Mar 91 19:19:00 GMT


 * Forwarded from "Communications Echo"
 * Originally from Philip Kirschner
 * Originally dated 03-28-91 03:48

 Next  Again
Msg #   8 of   9Date: Fri  3-22-91,  4:37 pm
From: SYSOPRead: 37 times

Subject: MODEM TAX

A new regulation that the FCC is quietly working on will directly affect you as
the user of a computer and modem.  The FCC proposes that users of modems should
pay extra charges for use of the public
telephone network which carry their data.  In addition, computer
network services such as Compu Serv, Tymnet, & Telenet would also be charged as
much as $6.00 per hour per user for use of the public
telephone network.  These charges would very likely be passed on to the
subscribers.  The money is to be collected and given to the
telephone company in an effort to raise funds lost to deregulation. Jim Eason
of KGO newstalk radio (San Francisco, Ca) commented on the proposal during his
afternoon radio program during which, he said he learned of the new regulation
in an article in the New York Times. Jim took the time to gather the addresses
which are given below.
What you should do:  First, take the time to download this message and the
letter which follows.  Next find three or more other BBS systems which are not
carrying this message and upload this text.  Finally, print three copies of the
letter which follows (or write your own) and send a signed copy to the three
addresses.  It is important that you act now.  The bureaucrats already have it
in there mind that modem users should subsidize the phone company and are now
listening to public comment. Please stand up and make it clear that we will
not stand for any government restriction on the free exchange of information.


The three addresses to write to: (a letter to send follows)
Chairman of the FCC
1919 M Street N.W.
Washington, D.C. 20554

Chairman, Senate Communication Subcommittee
SH-227 Hart Building
Washington, D.C. 20510

Chairman, House Telecommunication Subcommittee
B-331 Rayburn Building
Washington, D.C. 20515

Dear Sir,
  Please allow me to express my displeasure with the FCC proposal which would
authorize a surcharge for the use of modems on the
-- more --telephone network. This regulation is nothing less than an attempt
torestrict the free exchange of information among the growing number of
computer users. Calls placed using modems require no special telephone company
equipment, and users of modems pay the phone company for use of the network in
the form of a monthly bill. In short, a modem call is the same as a voice call
and therefore should not be subject to any additional regulation.

                     | Or words to that effect |


 Again  Reply  Prev  Next  Quit
Read the next message Next

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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Subject: Mail Problems
Date: 30 Mar 91 07:51:00 GMT


Hi Elizabeth, and thank you for the speedy response re:Nahani Park.

Unfortunately, my mail tossing program seems to have a major bug -- all I could
decypher from your response was your name, "Nahani", some odd works &
fragments, and a tantalizing allusion to headless prospectors.

Would you be kind enough to repost your response?  I have pitched Zmail in
favor of Imail and am reasonably certain that I can read your reply without a
program editor this time!

Many thanks!

Best,
  Clark

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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Subject: Re: Fcc Modem Charge
Date: 1 Apr 91 08:12:00 GMT

Hey, wait a minute!

Not only have I heard of this proposed tax about a year ago (and
subsequently, after starting a big argument about it on another net, found
out that it was phony), THIS IS THE *EXACT* ARTICLE I READ BACK THEN!

I agree that if such a suggestion is ever made, we must act to crush it as
fast as it physically possible, but I doubt that it's actually being
considered now.  If this weren't the same message I read previously, I might
be worried.  So if there's really something going on, somebody better do
something more than paste ancient messages into his editor!

--
Jim Shaffer - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Subject: Re: Fcc Modem Charge
Date: 1 Apr 91 08:17:00 GMT

Clark,

I hear that in New York, you have to pay extra to use CompuServe.  Not only
that, but CIS has to bill that part!  If I were running the thing, I'd have
told them where to go!

Also, our esteemed Governor Casey wants to tax long-distance phone calls, as
well as cable TV.  Don't you hate it when high technology is taken over by
people who in all likelihood don't even understand the basic principles of
its operation?!

Anyway, see my recent reply to Mike's message before you bomb FCC HQ or
anything.

--
Jim Shaffer - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



********To have your comments in the next issue, send electronic mail to********
                      'infopara' at the following address:

UUCP  {ncar,isis,boulder}!scicom!infopara
DOMAIN  [e-mail]
ADMIN Address [e-mail]
  {ncar,isis,boulder}!scicom!infopara-request

******************The**End**of**Info-ParaNet**Newsletter************************


                Info-ParaNet Newsletters   Volume I  Number 385

                             Friday, April 5th 1991

Today's Topics:

                                  New Affiliate
                                    Continuum
                              Submit your articles!
                                  New Affiliate
                        Sheriff's Deputy Denied Promotion
                                Fcc Modem Charge
                                 Re: Rick Redux
                               Thought for the day
                            Hello & Have You Heard???
                                Fcc Modem Charge
                                 Re: Rick Redux
                              Network Difficulties
                                 Thanks, Jerry!
                                  Malcolm Puddy
                                  A SETI Update
                                THEY'RE HERE!!!!
                      ''The Search For Schroedinger's Cat''
                                      SS433
                           Resonant Coil Implications?
                                 Serios Business
                                     (none)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (sm)
Subject: New Affiliate
Date: 2 Apr 91 00:34:00 GMT

This is to welcome a new member to the ParaNet family.  Please welcome Mike
Keithly.  He will act as ParaNet's Archivist (Librarian).  Mike is located in
the Denver area.

ParaNet ALPHA-THETA(sm)
Mike Keithly
303-933-7184 (2400)

Michael Corbin
Director

--
ParaNet(sm) Information Service - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: ParaNet(sm)[e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Subject: Continuum
Date: 2 Apr 91 06:14:00 GMT




             ***   P a r a N e t   C O N T I N U U M   ***

                            Continues ...



CONTINUUM is back!

ParaNet's newsletter of UFOlogy, online communications, paranormal
studies and research is resuming publication.

An exciting forum for an array of interests -- and a handy resource
for finding:


                  -- Current UFO events and symposia

                     -- Computer bulletin boards

                           -- Study groups

                          -- Contact groups

              -- Researchers and research organizations

                         -- Writers and more.


Complimentary copies of CONTINUUM's premiere issue will be available
to ParaNet participants and other interested parties for the price of
postage.

Thereafter, CONTINUUM will be available by subscription only, mailed
First Class within the U.S.  Please inquire via NetMail for more
information and subscription rates, including overseas rates.

Send mail to:

* ParaNet Alpha 1-303-431-8797 -- address echomail to Michael Corbin at
     9:9/0 (ParaNet) or
     1:104/422 (Fido) or
     [e-mail] (Internet)

* ParaNet Pi 1-201-451-3063 -- address echomail to Clark Matthews at
     9:1012/4 (ParaNet) or
     1:107/816 (FidoNet) or
     P.O. Box 3934, Jersey City, NJ  07303-3934

* James Roger Black on InterNet at
     shemtaia.weeg.uiowa.edu!jrblack (Internet)

--
Clark Matthews - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Subject: Submit your articles!
Date: 2 Apr 91 06:20:00 GMT



             ***   P a r a N e t   C O N T I N U U M   ***


               C A L L   F O R   S U B M I S S I O N S



CONTINUUM is back!

ParaNet's newsletter of UFOlogy, research, online communications, and
paranormal studies is resuming publication -- and calling for
submissions.

We are seeking articles of 500 to 3000 words for the premiere issue,
which is scheduled for publication in July 1991.

Publication will be quarterly.  Payment will be in copies.

            *** S U B M I S S I O N   D E A D L I N E  ***

                             May 15, 1991

                         Send submissions to:

                            Clark Matthews
                         The Wrong Number BBS
                            P.O. Box 3934
                     Jersey City, NJ  07303-3934



          *** E D I T O R I A L   S U B M I S S I O N S ***

                           SUBMIT ANYTHING!

We don't PROMISE to publish it, but if your topic interests you as a
UFO buff, we think it's a safe bet that others in our "circle" will
share your interest.

Science fiction.  Science fact.  UFO/paranormal history.  Scaly-eyed
skepticism.  A book review.  A television critique.  An interview.
The results of your last physics experiment.  You name it:  If it
interests you, it will probably interest us and your compeers here.
And it's welcome in CONTINUUM.

Registered copyrighted material will be protected but we do assume a
grant of non-exclusive serial rights from you, the author, upon
submission and before delivery of complimentary copies.  You must
inform us of other, pending rights sales upon submission.
Likewise, if you submit work-in-progress, your unpublished copyright
will be respected but a grant of non-exclusive serial rights is
expected in exchange for editorial and development work and before the
delivery of complimentary copies.  (Heck, we might even improve it!)


                 *** P L A N N E D   T O P I C S ***


            Planned articles in the coming issue include:


                          * The Fatima Enigma

        * Online listening post -- best of the ParaNet echoes

     * The Philadelphia Experiment:  Build It in Your Basement?!

                 * ParaNet -- 5 years and counting...

                            * UFO History

                         * UFO current events

                       * Handy UFO classifieds

                            * And more...



            *** M A G A Z I N E   H I G H L I G H T S ***

                 * Free classified public notices of:

                      -- UFO events and symposia

                     -- Computer bulletin boards

                           -- Study groups

                          -- Contact groups

              -- Researchers and research organizations

                         -- Writers and more.

Maximum ad length 40 words, including address and zip code.  Dues-
based membership organizations and sponsors of symposia may advertise,
but free classified ads cannot offer anything for sale.

Space for free classifieds is limited, and the offer does not apply to
display advertising.  The management reserves the right not to publish
ads.
It's definitely "un-commercial", but we're committed to keeping the
the "bulletin board" concept alive in the UFOlogical community.  So we
want CONTINUUM to be a helpful resource for its readers -- just like
ParaNet is for its users.  What goes around, comes around, in other
words.


Complimentary copies of CONTINUUM's premiere issue will be available
to ParaNet participants and other interested parties for the price of
postage.

Thereafter, CONTINUUM will be available by subscription only, mailed
First Class within the U.S.  Please inquire via NetMail for more
information and subscription rates, including overseas rates.


Best,
 Clark Matthews           Michael Corbin           James Roger Black
 Editorial Director       System Administrator     Contributing Editor


Send netmail to:

* ParaNet Alpha 1-303-431-8797 -- address echomail to Michael Corbin at
     9:9/0 (ParaNet) or
     1:104/422 (Fido) or
     [e-mail] (Internet)

* ParaNet Pi 1-201-451-3063 -- address echomail to Clark Matthews at
     9:1012/4 (ParaNet) or
     1:107/816 (FidoNet) or
     P.O. Box 3934, Jersey City, NJ  07303-3934

* James Roger Black on InterNet at
     shemtaia.weeg.uiowa.edu!jrblack (Internet)

--
Clark Matthews - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Subject: New Affiliate
Date: 2 Apr 91 07:49:00 GMT


 > This is to welcome a new member to the ParaNet family.  Please
 > welcome Mike Keithly.  He will act as ParaNet's Archivist
 > (Librarian).  Mike is located in the Denver area.  >
Welcome Mike!

Who's that knocking at my Door?

Best,
 Clark

--
Clark Matthews - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: Sheriff's Deputy Denied Promotion
Date: 29 Mar 91 17:03:00 GMT


 > Can you cover it for ParaNet?
 >
Consider it covered. Hard Copy's cameras rolled yesterday. Details and
possible interview to follow.

Jim

--
Jim Speiser - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: Fcc Modem Charge
Date: 2 Apr 91 16:20:00 GMT


 >
 > Subject: MODEM TAX
 >

Mike:

Its my understanding from past discussions of this very article, that this
issue is (so far, at least) non-existent. It seems that it might be the first
urban legend of the Information Age. It has come up several times before on
other echoes, and the word is that no such article has ever appeared in the
New York Times, and that the FCC is not considering such a move. That's my
recollection, anyway. Perhaps someone else could track this down more
thoroughly for us.

Jim

--
Jim Speiser - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Delton)
Subject: Re: Rick Redux
Date: 3 Apr 91 04:25:00 GMT

Do you ever read Calvin in the comic strips?  If you do you have seen
him using his transmorgafier lately.  His explanation of how his most
recent experiment ended is a case study in exactly the sort of
"theorizing" many UFO buffs engage in.
--
Jim Delton - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Subject: Thought for the day
Date: 3 Apr 91 05:56:00 GMT


       --THERE IS MORE GOING ON THAN OUR SENSES PERCEIVE--

        Our view of the world is primarily made up of what
        we have perceived through our five senses.  What we
        personally know of the world we have either seen, touched,
        tasted, smelled or heard.

        Unfortunately, our senses are limited, therefore our view
        of the world is limited.  This is not a problem unless we
        start believing that what we perceive is all there is to be
        perceived.  IT IS NOT!


>From Life 101.

--
Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jerry Driscoll)
Subject: Hello & Have You Heard???
Date: 30 Mar 91 13:21:00 GMT

In a message of <26 Mar 1991 17:52>, Elizabeth Anderson (1:134/30) writes:

 EA> Hello again, Clark!
 EA>
 EA> Here's some poop on the Nahhani National Park. Established
 EA> 1972; World Heritage Site. 120 species of bird; 32 of mammal.
 EA> River - 320 kms; park area 4700 kms. Hot springs and Viriginia
 EA> Falls, 100 m deep. Ice caves.
 EA>
 EA> Nearest town is Fort Simpson, NWT. Your best bet would be to
 EA> write to the Fort Simpson Chamber of Commerce, Fort Simpson,
 EA> NWT, Canada and ask for information.
 EA>
 EA> Personally, I find the stuff about bigfoot/feets being there
 EA> kinda hard to believe - there are not a lot of people up there
 EA> to report things, and the phenomenon seems to be human-centred.
 EA>
 EA> I looked at some maps - no roads. Hope this helps.
 EA>
 EA> Elizabeth
 EA>
 EA> P.S. Great stories about a lost gold mine and headless
 EA> prospectors, though!

Hi Clark...  This is Jerry, I cannot understand why you are having a problem
with ZMail..  I am using ZMailQ 1.12 over here, and it runs fine... in a year
and a half of using it, I have had only one BADPKT.000, and I am not convinced
that it was ZMailQ's fault.  I am sending this to you as I have access to the
offline reader (Msged/Q 1.52b) and Elizabeth does not...  Hope that you have
better success with this message.

Jerry


--
Jerry Driscoll - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Subject: Fcc Modem Charge
Date: 3 Apr 91 16:17:00 GMT


 > Its my understanding from past discussions of this very article, that
 > this issue is (so far, at least) non-existent. It seems that it might be
 > the first urban legend of the Information Age. It has come up several
 > times before on other echoes, and the word is that no such article has
 > ever appeared in the New York Times, and that the FCC is not considering
 > such a move. That's my recollection, anyway. Perhaps someone else could
 > track this down more thoroughly for us.

You and Jim are right.  I posted in haste.  Sorry.

Mike

--
Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Subject: Re: Rick Redux
Date: 3 Apr 91 16:18:00 GMT


 > Do you ever read Calvin in the comic strips?  If you do you have seen
 > him using his transmorgafier lately.  His explanation of how his most
 > recent experiment ended is a case study in exactly the sort of
 > "theorizing" many UFO buffs engage in.

Please elaborate.

Mike

--
Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Subject: Network Difficulties
Date: 3 Apr 91 20:58:00 GMT

This is to let you know that we have experienced a hardware problem with one
of our major hubs in Oklahoma.  Rod Wilson has the system back up and running,
and things will return to normal in the very near future.

Thank you for your patience.

Mike

--
Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Subject: Thanks, Jerry!
Date: 4 Apr 91 04:01:00 GMT


 > here, and it runs fine... in a year and a half of using it, I
 > have had only one BADPKT.000, and I am not convinced that it
 > was ZMailQ's fault.  I am sending this to you as I have access
 > to the offline reader (Msged/Q 1.52b) and Elizabeth does
 > not...  Hope that you have better success with this message.
 >

Hello Jerry & thanks for the replay of the message.  Please tell
Elizabeth that I will contact Ft. Smith Chamber of Commerce to see
what (if anything) gives in the park.

To this day, I am confounded by what happened with my ZmailH 1.14
routines.  They worked splendidly until about 2 weeks ago.  I had
some very useful, custom NODE and MAP statements that all worked
fine.  Then it started tossing every message into Bad Messages.
I get my feed from 9/0, where nothing was changed.  It continued to
work with Fido, but 95% of my traffic is ParaNet, so I had to bail
out of Zmail in the interest of keeping the echos echoing.

I have just completed the migration to Imail 1.10 and am
now experiencing no problems whatever.  In fact, Imail managed to
recover many, many bad messages and posted them correctly.  It's an
excellent program, extremely zone-smart, and it sets up with menus
that are almost foolproof (I am living proof of the foolproofness).

So far, so good...

Best,
  Clark

--
Clark Matthews - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: amix.commodore.com!vanth!jms
Subject: Malcolm Puddy
Date: 4 Apr 91 06:32:26 GMT

From: vanth![e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)

Does anyone know anything about someone named Malcolm Puddy?  He was a
British scientist who filed patents for something he called a 'stardrive.'
The government terminated his patents and he later committed suicide.  This
was all just last year, but I only heard about it last week.

The patents were titled 'Stardrive Type 1A' and "Stardrive Type 1B" and
were registered in London on 1 October 1990 and 23 October 1990
respectively.  One of the patent numbers was 9021280.  The patents were
terminated on 21 November 1990.  I've been told that this means that the
patents aren't even available to the public, and that it quite often means
that the Ministry Of Defence is interested in them.

That, unfortunately, is all I've heard, and all the person who told me has
heard (despite the fact that he lives in England.)  The implication was
that Puddy was the latest in the series of mysterious deaths in England,
but I can't remember if the company he worked for was mentioned (or if he
worked for a company at all.)  I have no idea what was meant by
'stardrive,' or what the circumstances of his death were.


*  From the disk of:  | [e-mail]       | 'You know I never knew
Jim Shaffer, Jr.      | amix.commodore.com!vanth!jms | that it could be so
37 Brook Street       | uunet!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms  | strange...'
Montgomery, PA 17752  | [e-mail]    |       (R.E.M.)




--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: amix.commodore.com!vanth!jms
Subject: A SETI Update
Date: 4 Apr 91 06:46:25 GMT

From: vanth![e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)

+From: [e-mail] (sm)
+
+Silvio Conte (R-MA): 'We don't need to spend $6 million this year
+to  find  evidence of these rascally creatures. We only  need 75
+cents to  buy  a tabloid at the  local  supermarket. Conclusive
+evidence  of  these  crafty critters can  be  found  at  checkout
+counters  from coast to coast. [Mr. Conte then entered  into  the
+Congressional  Record  five  articles  on  UFOs   from   tabloid
+publications.]

I had heard Conte was unfriendly to the concept, but I didn't know it was
this bad.  But didn't he die a couple months ago?

(Incidentally, on Usenet all my articles go out with 'Organization: The
Search For Terrestrial Intelligence' in the header.

*  From the disk of:  | [e-mail]       | 'You know I never knew
Jim Shaffer, Jr.      | amix.commodore.com!vanth!jms | that it could be so
37 Brook Street       | uunet!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms  | strange...'
Montgomery, PA 17752  | [e-mail]    |       (R.E.M.)




--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: well.sf.ca.us!ddrasin
Subject: THEY'RE HERE!!!!
Date: 4 Apr 91 06:49:23 GMT

From: [e-mail] (Dan Drasin)

       *
                        *                           *
             +
  *        ??|__                 *        *                        *
     _____/oo=__\_____
   <o=o=o=o=o=o=o=o=o=o>                                    *
    ''"""\_______/"""""                 *
          //               +
         //              __|__                                   *
        //         _____/_=oo=\_____               *
       //        <o=o=o=o=o=o=o=o=o=o>
    * //          ''"""\_______/"""""
   #|//                 o  o  o                         +
 # # /--*                                             __|__
 #_# #\                  ___________            _____/__=oo\_____
   #_# *                /~~~~~~~~~~~\         <o=o=o=o=o=o=o=o=o=o>
___#___________________/~~~          \         ''"""\_______/"""""
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+~~~~~~~~~~\_________ \            /    |    \
              __|__         ~~~~~~~\___\__________o_____o_____o______
        _____/=oo=_\_____           ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
      <o=o=o=o=o=o=o=o=o=o>              #_#
       ''"""\_______/"""""    *        #_#        _____________
           /    |    \         \  *   ___#_______/~~~~~~~~~~~~~
__________o_____o_____o_________\/___/~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                                                       \../
                                                       =oo=
                      #                              m  \/  w
                    #_#                               \(__)/
__________________    # #                             ^(__)^
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\   #_#                             ^(__)^
                   \__#__________________             _/  \_
                    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\____________'____'________
                                          ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~




--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: amix.commodore.com!vanth!jms
Subject: ''The Search For Schroedinger's Cat''
Date: 4 Apr 91 06:59:32 GMT

From: vanth![e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)

+From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
+
+If you want to read about other dimensions, try The Search for
+Schroedinger's Cat.

And after you've done that, read the file REALITY.ASC from KeelyNet, on
Bohm's holographic model of the universe and Pribram's holographic model of
the mind.  Excellent work!  (Maybe Clark or I should post it, although it's
not UFO-related.  Comments?)

*  From the disk of:  | [e-mail]       | 'You know I never knew
Jim Shaffer, Jr.      | amix.commodore.com!vanth!jms | that it could be so
37 Brook Street       | uunet!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms  | strange...'
Montgomery, PA 17752  | [e-mail]    |       (R.E.M.)




--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: amix.commodore.com!vanth!jms
Subject: SS433
Date: 4 Apr 91 06:59:58 GMT

From: vanth![e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)

Jim Greenen writes:

+Well Mike, from what I've been able to find out from other sources
+is that this object seems to have the ability to change course and
+speed. Which means it could be under intelligent control. Or simply
+a Unidentified Flying object. From what I'd heard is that there is
+more to SS433 then what the public is being told.

OK, but what exactly *is* SS433?  (I mean, what's the official
classification.  What class of objects is SSxxx ?)  This is the first I've
heard of an astronomical object changing course and speed.

Could you also give a few more details, such as when and where it was
discovered?  (I've read your later message to the effect that you don't
want to say too much, but there's got to be *something* that's a matter of
public record. The object has been given a designation, after all.)

*  From the disk of:  | [e-mail]       | 'You know I never knew
Jim Shaffer, Jr.      | amix.commodore.com!vanth!jms | that it could be so
37 Brook Street       | uunet!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms  | strange...'
Montgomery, PA 17752  | [e-mail]    |       (R.E.M.)




--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: amix.commodore.com!vanth!jms
Subject: Resonant Coil Implications?
Date: 4 Apr 91 07:00:21 GMT

From: vanth![e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)

(I'm catching up on some old mail, so I'll be quoting old articles in the
next few messages.)

+From: vm1.yorku.ca!YSCS1296
+
+I am not well-versed in physics higher than high-school levels.  Can
+someone tell me exactly what can happen within the distorted space-time
+that this Resonant Coil produces?  What are the implications? I suppose
+this ISN'T an anti-gravity device?  Is it a pathway to ... folding space?

Let me start by saying that my physics isn't much better than yours -- but
then, some of this technology isn't accepted by current physics anyway!
Also, I haven't built anything like this.

OK, now, the way I understand it, although you could probably produce an
antigravity field with this coil, everything I've heard seems to indicate
that such a coil is supposed to be able to modify the fundamental
characteristics of matter itself.  The power supply connected *between* the
two coils, with a strong dielectric separating them, seems to suggest the
Biefeld-Brown effect, which appears to be a unidirectional gravitational
force. But you can do that without coils.  It's the fact that there's also
a magnetic field involved, not just an electric one, that suggests to me
that the coil does far more than generate gravity.

+Of course, it would help if someone(s) actually built it, and reported
+on it.

Well, it would cost a lot of money, and use a lot of power, and as Clark
said, there are rumors that it's dangerous.  Even if it didn't do anything
bizarre, it would probably cause problems.

Also, if anyone is thinking about building one, I've heard that the plans
for the power supplies are questionable.  I haven't analyzed them myself.
But get somebody who knows what they're doing to look at them.  (Don't show
them the rest of the file though!)

+What about the anti-gravity device mentioned in the KRILL (eek) docs?
+Any substance to that claim?

I've heard it mentioned outside the Krill paper, but again I've never been
fortunate enough to see anything like it in operation.

I haven't looked at it for a while, but the Searle device seems to resemble
an N-Machine.  The N-Machine isn't an antigravity device, it's a
free-energy device.  (In fact, the way I understand it, it's 'just' a
Faraday homopolar generator with a higher-than-100% efficiency.)  But the
basic concept seems similar, and the Searle device is obviously generating
a lot of free energy.  I don't know why it levitates -- whether it's just
an electrostatic or electromagnetic effect, or whether it's doing something
'strange.'

*  From the disk of:  | [e-mail]       | 'You know I never knew
Jim Shaffer, Jr.      | amix.commodore.com!vanth!jms | that it could be so
37 Brook Street       | uunet!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms  | strange...'
Montgomery, PA 17752  | [e-mail]    |       (R.E.M.)




--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: well.sf.ca.us!ddrasin
Subject: Serios Business
Date: 4 Apr 91 07:02:08 GMT

From: [e-mail] (Dan Drasin)

Re: THE WORLD OF TED SERIOS (*Second* Edition), by Jule Eisenbud, M.
D., (C) 1989, published by McFarland & Co., Inc, Box 611,
Jefferson, NC 28640.

+ I loved the rest of your message, but could you encapsulate for us
+ just how Eisenbud overcomes the 'serios' charge <groan!> that
+ Serios used a 'gizmo' to create the "psychic photos"? It was my
+ understanding that whenever Serios was persuaded (usually with
+ great difficulty) to give up the gizmo (a cylinder in which it was
+ alleged he secreted small photographic slides), that he was
+ consistently unable to 'perform'.

Jim, you really have to read the book. The 'gizmo' (usually a small,
hollow cardboard tube) was evidently a kind of psychological crutch;
in *all* the years of research no one *ever* caught Serios with any
kind of device that could remotely explain the phenomena -- results
that were documented over and over and over by staff of the U. of CO
Medical School and others. In the end there was not a grain of
evidence for fraud, and many hundreds of photographs as evidence
of Serios' 'talents.' One of the key evidential factors was the
*distortions* of space and time in many of the photos --
'dream-like' or "imagination-like" distortions and seamless
composite images that positively could not have been faked by any
mechanical means under the circusmtances. Also, many photos were
made with the cameras at quite some distance from Serios, and in the
hands of the investigators. Some of the pictures appeared as if
taken from 'impossible' angles; from places where the cameras had
never been positioned. There's more, too. *Much* more. Including a
lot of pictures not previously published.

In the book, Eisenbud spends considerable time dealing with the
questions of belief/disbelief, scientific integrity, and attacks by
the popular press (notably, Popular Photography magazine) and of
course our old friend James Randi. Except for Eisenbud's annoying
tendency to indulge in encyclopedic, run-on sentences, the book is a
*very* good read.

If I could recommend only one book to our kneejerk skeptic friends,
this one would be it by a country mile.

***** (Five stars. Highly Recommended.)

=d=




--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: ecn.purdue.edu!lush
Subject: (none)
Date: 4 Apr 91 07:36:25 GMT

From: [e-mail] (Gregory B Lush)


From: GBL

There have been several requests for research done into the areas
of the paranormal/psychic phenomena.  I forgot that I know of an
excellent book on the subject.

A woman named Shafica Karagulla, M.D. wrote a book called
   'Breakthrough to Creativity.'
   DeVorss & Co.
   P.O. Box 550
   Marina Del Ray, CA 90291
   1977
   (This address is old so I don't know if it still works.)

She is a highly-respected neuro-psychiatrist who did research into
psychiatric treatments.  She was to head one of the preeminent
research institutes in the nation, if not the world, when a friend
gave her a book about Edgar Cayce, 'Edgar Cayce, Mystery Man of
Miracles.  She was impressed/confused by Edgar Cayce's ability to do
things such as remote viewing because she knew the
brain very well (she thought) and could not find a mechanism whereby
a human could do such a thing.

This set her off on a personal study of psychic phenomena.  She found
many subjects (people) which she referred to as 'sensitives' who could do
remote viewing and other 'impossible' things.  She found doctors who could
see a patient's aura and determine what was wrong before any conventional
diagnosis was necessary.  In order to not be labeled eccentric or worse,
the doctors would do the required tests that would prove what they
already knew/felt.  Other interesting examples were of people who had
special talents but did not know it.  One was a woman who, when you would
describe a place to her such as the Great Wall, would get an image of
the place which would match perfectly the real appearance of the location.
She thought that everyone could do that so didn't think anything of this
rare ability.

Many other studies were done.  This woman gave up an important position
within her field to fund these studies with her own money and stopped
working so she had no source of outside income.  The book is an objective
account of her work.

Sincerely,

            Greg Lush ( [e-mail] )





********To have your comments in the next issue, send electronic mail to********
                      'infopara' at the following address:

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******************The**End**of**Info-ParaNet**Newsletter************************


                Info-ParaNet Newsletters   Volume I  Number 386

                            Saturday, April 6th 1991

Today's Topics:

                           Re: Gravitational magnetism
                                 Belgian reports
                                 Re: Bill Cooper
                                     (none)
                               Kecksburg UFO Crash
                                 Re: Rick Redux
                            Re: Statements of accepta
                              Re: Fcc Modem Charge
                                Re: Mail Problems
                                    Skeptics
                      Fiery Objects Fall on Northern Texas
                              Re: THEY'RE HERE!!!!
                                       KOA
                                Re:  Bill Cooper
                               Re: Serios Business

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (John Tender)
Subject: Re: Gravitational magnetism
Date: 30 Mar 91 09:57:42 GMT


 >>          Robert Forward, a physicist specializing
 >> in gravitational theory and 'hard SF' writer (Dragon's
 >> Egg and sequel), has described an antigravity device
 >> consisting of a toroidal coil with an ID of about
 >> 100 meters.
 >>
 >> If the mass of a neutron star were to flow through the
 >> windings of the coil every millisecond, the magnetic

 KL>  Not possible.  The constraints of even a superconductor
 KL> to handle that many electrons per millisec dictate a
 KL> conductor wider than the toroid itself.  That's my
 KL> hip-pocket assessment without knowing the mass of the
 KL> neutron star involved.

     I got the impression that the mass goes through the toroid, not the
coils.

 >> enormous masses and velocities required is the low
 >> value of the gravitational coupling constant
 >> (about 40 orders of magnitude less than the strong
 >> nuclear or EM)

 KL> Wrong!  40 orders of magnitude places this "reaction"
 KL> above Planck energy values, an unexplored region if not
 KL> virgin territory by human instrumentation(s) that one
 KL> might consider possible billionths of a second after the
 KL> creation of the (now reckoned) universe.
 KL> 10^19 to 10^28 is more likely the region that we could
 KL> measure "gravitons" at, if superstring theory is valid.

     What are "Planck energy values"?  Where did you get the numbers
10^19 to 10^28?

     The 10e40 value for comparative field strength of the EM force over
the gravitational force comes from a comparison of the field strengths
for specific particles. In a model of the hydrogen atom, assuming a
proton-electron distance of 5.3e-11 meter, the EM force between the two
particles is 8.1e-8 newtons while the gravitational force is only
3.7e-47 newtons. This yields about a 10e40 ratio, and since both fields
have an inverse square dependance on distance, the ratio is invariant
for particle separation. As most of the charged particles in the
universe are protons and electrons, this is not an inappropriate
comparison. However, even if you substitute another proton for the
electron, the ratio is only reduced to about 10e37.

 >> and the low permeability of space to the field.
 >>         Physicists at Stanford and elsewhere are
 >> planning experiments on a satellite in the next decade
 >> to test for the existence of the protational field.

 KL> I'll have to look this term up, never heard it before.

     It's new to me too. Let me know what you find.

 ... from the purlieus of Pittsburgh
--
John Tender - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (John Hicks)
Subject: Belgian reports
Date: 31 Mar 91 00:13:00 GMT


  An interesting little tidbit from the International Literary Gazette
(reprinted by UFONS) in an interview by Oleg Moroz of Ivan Tretyak,
CIC USSR ADF.

MOROZ. "The Belgian Air Force headquarters published some excerpts
from a report which gave an account of the events that occurred on the
night of March 30: It was at last officially confirmed that the
mysterious black triangles that had for seven months recurrently
appeared over Belgium were detected by military radars."

TRETYAK. "I know about this publication. But the fact is that several
days later it was refuted; there had been no detection by radars."

  Have we missed a followup somewhere? Throughout the interview,
Tretyak seems to be a fairly straightforward guy.

                                           jbh

--
John Hicks - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Greenen)
Subject: Re: Bill Cooper
Date: 4 Apr 91 00:55:00 GMT

Don; I was just pulling the leg a little when I mention Las Vegas.
If we can you the team Alien as some other race that is not of the
planet earth, then I would say that YES there is prove that we are
being visited by Aliens. Check in Wendelle Stevens back room and you
will see over 3,500 pictures of these crafts that they are using.
Ask the 20,000,000 people that have seen something that does not
look or act like anything that is know on this earth.
   You being a retired police investigator would not have any
problem sending a person to death if you had the data that exist on
UFO's. If our courts demanded more prove then what we have collected
over the pass 40+ years then we might as well lay off ever police
officer and close all prisons. I have to go now because I got to
give a lecture on UFO's in about 1 hour to our local Amateur Radio
Club. I ask for a rebuttal when the 2 months ago a lawyer gave a
talk on the subject and said that because the speed of light is the
fastest thing know to man and the nearest star that might support
life is x mount of years and it would take this long to get from
point a to b, there for there is no such thing as UFO's. Believe me
someone is going to hang tonight because I am going to show them
some prove.      73's      ---Jim---
--
Jim Greenen - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: psuvm.psu.edu!CCB104
Subject: (none)
Date: 5 Apr 91 04:30:45 GMT

From: <[e-mail]>


(I am sending you this on behalf of T. Scott Crain, Jr.)

  - - The original note follows - -

  - - Standard disclaimers apply - -

  * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Cut here * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

From:    T. Scott Crain, Jr.
Subject: Kecksburg UFO Crash

Perhaps Paranet subscribers should not be so quick to write off the
Kecksburg UFO crash, as would be the upshot of a recent article by
Robert Young for the Spring 1991 Skeptical Inquirer (Info-Paranet
Newsletter, Vol. 1, No. 380). It appears Young has a knack for filtering
out facts that don't parallel his preconceived notions about what really
happened that night on December 9, 1965.

Stan Gordon, Director of the Pennsylvania Association for
the Study of the Unexplained (PASU), is an active investigator of the
Kecksburg crash and has compiled a mountain of evidence that supports
the notion that a bronze-colored, acorn-shaped object, approximately 12
feet long and 10 feet in diameter, with a band of unintelligible
markings wrapped around it, crash-landed in a wooded area near
Kecksburg, Pennsylvania.

After seeing Young's article in Info-Paranet Newsletter, I phoned Gordon on
March 31, 1991, and we discussed his ongoing investigation as well as Young's
article.

First of all, Young dismisses what witnesses claim they saw, simply
because they did not come forward sooner. Gordon has interviewed at
least 4 witnesses who saw the object while it was on the ground (and,
to be sure, before the military had secured the crash site area).
They include one fireman (one of several who saw it that day) and three
civilians.  These witnesses are not looking for publicity and will not
let Gordon release their names to the media for fear of ridicule.  Gordon
explained to me how witnesses who didn't know each other took him to the
same crash site.  Witnesses' descriptions of the craft were virtually
identical, during separate interviews conducted by PASU.

Young points out in his article that during the alleged UFO recovery
operation, Jerome and Valerie Miller's home was portrayed as a 'military
command post' in the re-enactment appearing on NBC's 'Unsolved
Mysteries' episode on the crash (Sept. 19, 1990). The Miller's deny their
home was a command center for the military, and so does Stan Gordon, who told
me that another home in the vicinity of the crash was the command post.

Young hints that a secret satellite was launched from Vandenberg Air
Force Base, California, that same day, and the stage was set for
Kecksburg. Never mind that scientist Ivan T. Sanderson traced the flight
pattern of the UFO and discovered it made a controlled 25-degree turn in
Ohio and headed for Pennsylvania (Fate Magazine, arch 1966). Not a
typical movement of a satellite crashing back to Earth.

Young also hints that the object may have been a brilliant bolide or
'fireball' that was observed coming down from Canada and a half dozen or
so states before crash-landing. But he failed to mention that Sanderson
estimated the object's speed at 1062.5 miles per hour. PASU did a
detailed analysis of the observations and times the object was seen and
concluded that at most the object was moving at a speed of 5257 miles
per hour. Neither estimate comes anywhere near the minimum speed for a
meteor which is approximately 27,000 miles per hour. Witnesses to the
Kecksburg UFO said it was 'gliding in' before it crashed and moving at
the speed of a small plane.

Finally, Young concludes from old newspaper accounts that really nothing
fell in Kecksburg. Young reports 'the Air Force also announced that
nothing had been found' (Pittsburgh Press, Dec. 10). Yet, Project
Bluebook records I have in my hands indicate the Air Force concluded the
object was a meteor, which we have already determined is virtually
impossible. Anyhow, why would numerous local fire companies, the
Pennsylvania State Police, the U.S. Air Force, the 662nd Radar Squadron,
and various other military officials gravitate to the village of
Kecksburg to recover a rock from space? What happened to this alleged
meteor? Why did it have to be removed that night? And why all the
secrecy?

Young reports: 'The official explanations are totally consistent with
all published accounts and the present recollections of scores of
witnesses.' Obviously, Young has not been talking to the same witnesses
that Gordon has been talking to. Like the Westmoreland County man who
was stationed at Lockborne Air Base near Columbus, Ohio, who claims the
base was put on 'red alert' during the early morning hours of December
10, 1965 (the same morning witnesses at Kecksburg watched a flatbed
truck travel towards the crash site and leave with a large object on the
back covered with a tarp). According to this former member of the Air
Police at Lockborne, a flatbed truck with a tarpaulin-covered object
drove into the hangar and was guarded until 7:30 a.m., when it left for
Wright-Patterson Air Force Base 100 miles away.

Several days later, a witness reported seeing the object at
Wright-Patterson. Reporter Sharon Santus writing in the Greensburg
Tribune-Review (Dec. 9, 1990) writes:

+Another witness, Ohio truck driver John Cummings (not his real name),
+said he actually saw the object inside a building at Wright-Patterson
+on Dec. 12, 1965, just three days after the alleged landing.
+
+Cummings, who made deliveries for a Dayton-area building-supply company,
+said a high-ranking military officer arrived at the firm on Dec. 11,
+1965, and ordered a special radiation-, moisture-resistant brick for
+construction of a protective room inside a building at Wright-Patterson.
+
+Cummings said he and a cousin delivered 6,500 bricks to Wright-Patterson
+the next day after being instructed by their boss not to discuss
+anything they might observe at the compound.
+
+'We were unloading the bricks onto pallets and me and my cousin decided
+to sneak inside to see what all the secrecy was about,' Cummings said.
+'Guards immediately ordered us out ... but not before we saw it.'
+
+Cummings said he saw a dark bronze, bell-shaped object about 14 feet
+wide at the base and about 12 feet high.
+
+He said scaffolding surrounded the object, which was covered on three
+sides with parachute-like material that hung from the ceiling. According
+to Cummings, 10 to 15 men with white, protective suits, wearing rubber
+boots, rubber gloves and gas masks were attempting to open the object.
+
+'They took us outside and told us to forget what we had seen,' Cummings
+said, 'We were told that in 20 years, the object would be common
+knowledge.'
+
+Cummings said that a few days later he learned that other truck drivers
+had seen a flatbed military truck with a tarpaulin-covered object on the
+back traveling from the Pittsburgh area west on Route 40 toward
+Wheeling, W.Va., and then on to Columbus and Dayton.
+
+He said that information along with his own experience convinces him
+that the object he saw at Wright-Patterson was the same as that which
+allegedly fell in Kecksburg.

As one can see, there is more to this case than Young has reported in
his article. At the close of my conversation with Gordon, he said that
he was not saying it's an alien spacecraft (that's only one possibility);
it could be a sophisticated military probe of an undetermined origin.
But something landed that day in Kecksburg, and whatever it was, it
attracted the interest of the military.

  - - End of message from T. Scott Crain, Jr. - -




--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (John Cockrell)
Subject: Re: Rick Redux
Date: 4 Apr 91 22:46:00 GMT

Musta missed that one. What'd he say?
                                Just wonderin',
                                        J.C.
--
John Cockrell - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: Re: Statements of accepta
Date: 4 Apr 91 21:16:00 GMT


 >      I am looking for statements they have committed to print and public
 > distribution; if no single definitive statements are available, then
 > maybe a few relevant citations. If you have some files of personal
 > conversations, I'm interested but I'd rather have "official" statements
 > in their own words.

Sorry; can't really help you there. I do believe that the statements you seek
exist in many places, most notably the Skeptical Inquirer, but I couldn't
cite you specific references.

 >      Such statements would be quite valuable. It would at least show how
 > competent these guys are as scientists (assuming they would actually
 > write their own stuff) as opposed to propagandists.

It is my impression that these guys are competent "scientific thinkers."
(Define "scientist.") I am not by any stretch of the imagination a
"scientist", but I believe I've got a grasp on how the thinking process goes.
While I disagree with their parameters for evidence, I recognize that there
is enough room for gentlemanly debate on the subject without stooping to the
degree of vilification you seem to revel in. The bottom line is, I *do*
believe that "these guys" will accept *SOMETHING* solid as evidence, and
though they do seem to present a moving target, I believe that, if UFOs are a
genuine, physical phenomenon, it is within our power to gather the requisite
amount of evidence to convince them. Of course, with some of them, it becomes
almost academic, since a sufficiently large body of evidence has indeed
already been gathered.

 >      I never said Rick or anyone should delete any files. I did say that
 > if we are going to categorize these files, as "good" or "bad" or
 > "Cooper-like" etc., we should have explicitly stated (as opposed to
 > implicitly assumed) ~reasons~ for doing so. I opposed the idea that such
 > file deletions should be made at the whim of a sysop. This is both
 > consistent with and required of a scientific approach to the UFO
 > phenomena.
 >
 >      When Rick, a member of the Bay Area Skeptics and CSICOP, evaded
 > this issue so persistently it merely reinforced a pattern I've seen in
 > skeptics before; using science when it is convenient, and ignoring it
 > otherwise.

<sigh> I have seen that pattern in skeptics myself. I just don't see it in
Rick, and I don't think you should be painting with such a broad brush.

Jim

--
Jim Speiser - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
Subject: Re: Fcc Modem Charge
Date: 5 Apr 91 07:42:00 GMT

I don't blame you Mike, I "posted in haste" to say the least, the first time
I read the article.  But then I stopped to think, and I hesitated on sending
any nasty letters to the FCC.  Good thing, because it was debunked a few
weeks later.  (I think it was probably around February/March of last year,
but I'm not certain.  As I said before, it was the same message you posted.)

--
Jim Shaffer - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Elizabeth Anderson)
Subject: Re: Mail Problems
Date: 4 Apr 91 01:51:00 GMT

Ok, here's the information again. Everybody please note, however, I am at a
very remedial level with computers, and I don't keep copies of messages I
send, ok?

It is called the Nahanni (two 'n's) National Park. Established 1972. Covers
4700 square kms. The river is 320 kms long. There are gorges over 1000 m
deep, and there is a falls, over 100 m deep (or high, I suppose) called
Virginia Falls.

32 mammal species; 120 bird species. UNESCO World Heritage Site.

Nearest service point - Fort Simpson, N.W.T.; write to their Board of Trade
or Chamber of Commerce for information.

As for the headless prospectors, they were looking for gold - but maybe they
found it, maybe they didn't......


All the best, and good luck! Let me know if you need more info.


Elizabeth

--
Elizabeth Anderson - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Gene Gross)
Subject: Skeptics
Date: 5 Apr 91 14:56:44 GMT

>From [e-mail] (Gene Gross)

The only problem with being open-minded is that your brains may fall
out. <GRIN!!>

Okay, enough clowning for a moment.  Look, Rick and other skeptics serve
a very valid and useful purpose in any investigation of things that the
rationalist tends to see as outside the 'natural laws.'  They demand of
all of us far better work and documentation of the evidence.  And as
irritating as their constant questioning can be, it should be the spur
in the flank that moves us onward.  No amount of belief makes up for
sloppy scholarship and research.

By the same token, skepticism for the mere sake of being skeptical
is an unworthy effort.  This is not to accuse any individual of this
practice.  One of the problems that I've had with the rationalist school
is that much of the philosophical positions tend to be self-defeating.
But this is not the place for an extensive discourse on Hume and others.

Rick, has often asked very good questions that deserve good, or better
answers.  He has shown the weakness of some thinking and positions.  For
this, we ought to tip our hat to him.

One thing though, Rick, offering an alternative explanation of an event
does not disprove the event or the other explanation.  Also, I wonder
how many skeptics form their arguments as follows:

P = premise
C = conclusion

P:  Since UFOs do not exist,
C:  there cannot be any evidence that they do exist.
P:  Since there cannot be any evidence for UFOs' existence,
C:  all evidences for UFOs must be somehow false.
P:  Since all evidences for UFOs are false,
C:  UFOs do not exist.

Again, this is not a personal accusation.  However, I have been
interested in the comments of many skeptics that, regardless of the
evidence, UFOs are impossible.  I remain skeptical that UFOs are what
some think they are, but I do acknowledge that something is happening to
people that cannot be accounted for by a natural explanation.  At that
point I have to stop because I do not have enough information and
evidence to make a definitive statement.

Nonetheless, keep it up, Rick.

Gene Gross


--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: neptune.convex.com!swarren
Subject: Fiery Objects Fall on Northern Texas
Date: 5 Apr 91 18:54:05 GMT

From: [e-mail] (Steve Warren)

This was in today's (Friday  4/5/91) issue of The
Dallas Morning News (bottom of page 21A).

In  light  of the  recent  discussions  regarding
sightings  of  fireballs, I thought  some  of the
Paranet readers would  find  it interesting, so I
typed in the article this morning.

Enjoy:
-------------------------------------------------
SIRENS GO OFF; NO ONE KNOWS WHY
Teletype, 'Fiery Objects' in Sky Add to Mystery

By Todd Copilevitz and Nita Thurman
Staff Writer of The Dallas Morning News

A cryptic Teletype about a ground fire and 'fiery
objects' falling from the sky - followed by civil
defense sirens apparently  sounding  off on their
own - had Dallas officials humming the theme from
The Twilight Zone on Thursday.

Beginning at  1:47  a.m., the 911 switchboard was
flooded with phone   calls from  residents in the
Eastern  third of the  city  wanting to  know the
reason for the sirens.

Authorities wanted to know, too.

Computer  tapes   did  not show  that  anyone had
triggered the  sirens -  or  even that  they were
sounding,  said  Bobby   J.  Martinez,  assistant
director   of  Dallas'   Office     of  Emergency
Preparedness.

But three  minutes  before the  sirens went  off,
police  received   a  Teletype  from  the   North
American     Aerospace    Defense Command,  which
monitors the  skies for falling  objects  such as
enemy missiles and space debris.

The message - first sent to the  Texas Department
of  Public  Safety   in Austin, then   relayed to
police departments, read:

'Report from national warning center on  hot spot
or  possible  ground   fire  28  miles  North  of
Longview.  Are attempting to locate fire now.  At
approximately same time  national warning  center
received  reports of  fiery objects falling  from
sky east of  Oklahoma  City.  Are investigating a
possible  correlation  of  the    two  sightings.
Request any   agency  receiving similar   reports
forward      information    to    DPS      Austin
communications.'

Moments  later,  according to    telephone  logs,
people started calling about the sirens.

'This  place  was   going nuts,' said  one police
communications worker.   'They kept expecting Rod
Serling  to step out  of  the corner,' she  said,
referring  to the  host of the  old Twilight Zone
television show.

Mr.  Martinez said  the  city's 94  sirens can be
turned  on only by   the  watch commander at  the
police  communications center  or  the Office  of
Emergency Preparedness.

'Dallas police do  not indicate that they sounded
the sirens, and we weren't  even in the office at
that time,' he said.

There is  no way for  a teletype to  trigger  the
127-decibel sirens   automatically,  Mr. Martinez
said.

Police and emergency preparedness officials tried
to turn the sirens off, but with limited success.
The sirens went back  on  as  many as three times
before Mr.  Martinez's office disabled the city's
entire system at 3:00 a.m.

'It became obvious that the system was  not going
to  reset on its own,  so our only  choice was to
disable it,' he said.

NORAD officials said they had issued the teletype
about midnight Dallas time.  Apparently there was
a  delay in transmission  of the message from the
DPS in Austin to local police.

Meanwhile, the bright  objects  mentioned  in the
NORAD Teletype were  reported by residents across
North Texas.

Mike Ames, 25, of The Colony (a city in the North
Dallas area - SW) said he was jogging  in a rural
area when he saw a ball of fire streak across the
sky from northwest to southeast  sometime after 9
p.m.

'I  thought it was  a satellite coming  down,' he
said.  'I thought I was  going to get hit by some
debris.

'I could see flames coming off ...and it had this
big tale.'

A  fisherman on  Lake Whitney, 35 miles  north of
Waco, called the National Weather Service in Fort
Worth to  report that  the whole lake  lit up and
debris  fell everywhere,  said  a weather service
spokesman.

'We  had three   or  four calls  here from people
wondering what the light was,' said meteorologist
Jesse  Moore.   'All we  can   say  is it  wasn't
weather-related.'

As for he report  of a ground fire  in  northeast
Texas,  Upshur  County deputies  said a  thorough
search turned up nothing.

'They couldn't  locate anything,'  said sheriff's
Capt.  Nancy  Betterton.     'There   just wasn't
anything there.'

In addition to plenty  of mystery,   Mr. Martinez
said the episode provided one benefit:

'At least we  know now that the   sirens are loud
enough to wake people if necessary.'
-------------------------------------------------

            _.
--Steve   ._||__      DISCLAIMER: All opinions are my own.
  Warren   v\ *|     ----------------------------------------------
             V       {uunet,sun}!convex!swarren; [e-mail]




--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: Re: THEY'RE HERE!!!!
Date: 5 Apr 91 14:10:00 GMT

> They're Here!

And they look like the Michelin Tire Man!
--
Jim Speiser - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: KOA
Date: 5 Apr 91 14:11:00 GMT

How did the KOA appearance go?
--
Jim Speiser - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: neptune.convex.com!swarren
Subject: Re:  Bill Cooper
Date: 6 Apr 91 00:18:51 GMT

From: [e-mail] (Steve Warren)

+From: [e-mail] (Jim Greenen)
+Subject: Re: Bill Cooper
+Date: 26 Mar 91 14:10:01 GMT
                            [...]
+            ...  Now, If you had a dramatic sighting (and I also
+had one) wouldn't you have the tendency to throw all skeptism out
+and look toward the reasons of who, how, what and where questions? I
+did that many years ago and now I am looking for the answers to
+those questions.
+   You mention that you are skeptic but skeptic of what? If you were
+refering to Mr. Cooper, you have good reason but to the existence of
+aliens visiting this planet, you should not have any doubt.  ...

On what grounds?  Just because I experience a dramatic sighting does not
mean that aliens are visiting us!  What did I really see?  How many
conclusions can I draw from my experience?  Does everything that is bizarre
(beyond anything I've experienced before) necessarily come from outside of
our planet?  Certainly I have no extra-planetary experiences that would
give me the ability to actually judge whether something originated from
outside of planet Earth.

And I'm not saying aliens are not visiting us.  But really, we are trying
to discover what the reality of this phenomenum is, and just deciding that
it is aliens visiting this planet is not helpful!

Why not?  Because there are a number of alternative theories that taken
together could explain everything that has been reported.  Some of these
theories include intentional hoaxes and mental/emotional instability,
suggestability (in the case of hypnotic regression), gov't disinformation
for unknown purposes (possibly using UFO reports to explain/discredit
sightings of supersecret technology developed by the gov't), etc.

Again, let me stress, I am not saying that there are no aliens.  I am just
saying that when you want to get to the bottom of something it is not
productive to decide in advance that you already know what has happened.

In order to actually say, as Jim says here, 'you should not have any
doubt,' (and actually be right) you *must* have some kind of verifiable
evidence that *distinguishes* between these theories.  IE you need to have
evidence that clearly eliminates Earthly technology, as well as hoaxes,
delusions or hallucinations.

There is also the less-popular alternate theory that says that the
explanation for ufos is 'spiritual,' that is, only a small part of the
manifestations are actually physical, and everything else is spectral
(manipulations of light/ radar/magnetism/etc by 'spirit' or
extra-dimensional creatures who have some bizarre otherworldly purpose for
'spooking' us on a regular basis).  This theory would be dealt a serious
blow by the recovery of a working alien spacecraft.  ;^)

All these various explanations are clamoring for attention, and no one has
yet presented the definitive evidence that justifies any one theory to the
exclusion of all the rest.  Until the definitive evidence appears, it is
silly to accuse people of being closed minded for not embracing one view
over another.  In reality the closed-minded ones are the people like Jim
here, who has already made up his mind that one theory is 'it'; it's the
answer.  The truth is, there are other theories that are just as likely to
be the correct explanation, if not more so.

To me open-minded means being open to *all* the plausible explanations, and
remaining neutral even towards the more silly explanations.  You can't
narrow the field until the actual evidence is sufficient to eliminate the
other contenders.
            _.
--Steve   ._||__      DISCLAIMER: All opinions are my own.
  Warren   v\ *|     ----------------------------------------------
             V       {uunet,sun}!convex!swarren; [e-mail]




--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: Re: Serios Business
Date: 5 Apr 91 14:09:00 GMT

OK, Dan, you've convinced me. I shall look for the much-vaunted *second
edition* of the World of Ted Serios.

In the meantime, I shall review Martin Gardner's "Science: Good, Bad
and Bogus" and may excerpt a few things from it for your reading
"pleasure." Mind you, I'm no great fan of Gardner's, and if I run
something of his up the flagpole, its because I'm really hoping it can
be shot down - personally I think the guy is the most pompous of the
CSICOP hit-men. But I will be looking for bulls-eyes on Eisenbud's
part.

Jim
--
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UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



********To have your comments in the next issue, send electronic mail to********
                      'infopara' at the following address:

UUCP  {ncar,isis,boulder}!scicom!infopara
DOMAIN  [e-mail]
ADMIN Address [e-mail]
  {ncar,isis,boulder}!scicom!infopara-request

******************The**End**of**Info-ParaNet**Newsletter************************


                Info-ParaNet Newsletters   Volume I  Number 387

                             Monday, April 8th 1991

Today's Topics:

                                 Re: Rick Redux
                                 Belgian Reports
                                       Koa
                                 Re: Bill Cooper
                                    Re: Proof
                               Re: Thanks, Jerry!
                               Re: Thanks, Jerry!
                                  Carp.UFO revisited
                               Re: Serios Business
                              Re: THEY'RE HERE!!!!
                                   Re: (none)
                                 THEY'RE HERE!!
                                    Re: SS433
                               Re: SERIOS BUSINESS
                                 Human visitors
                               Re: SERIOS BUSINESS
                                Re: Mail Problems
                                Re: A SETI Update
                      ''The Search For Schroedinger's Cat''
                           Resonant Coil Implications?
                                 Serios Business
                               Re: Thanks, Jerry!

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Jim Delton)
Subject: Re: Rick Redux
Date: 6 Apr 91 03:03:00 GMT

Elaboration on Calvin.   A string of buzzword that sounded good but
meant nothing.  Looses something in the translation.
--
Jim Delton - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
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INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Subject: Belgian Reports
Date: 5 Apr 91 21:26:00 GMT


 >   An interesting little tidbit from the International Literary Gazette
 > (reprinted by UFONS) in an interview by Oleg Moroz of Ivan Tretyak, CIC
 > USSR ADF.
 >
 > MOROZ. "The Belgian Air Force headquarters published some excerpts from
 > a report which gave an account of the events that occurred on the night
 > of March 30: It was at last officially confirmed that the mysterious
 > black triangles that had for seven months recurrently appeared over
 > Belgium were detected by military radars."
 >
 > TRETYAK. "I know about this publication. But the fact is that several
 > days later it was refuted; there had been no detection by radars."
 >
 >   Have we missed a followup somewhere? Throughout the interview, Tretyak
 > seems to be a fairly straightforward guy.

I would rather doubt this, as I have talked directly to Richard Haines who is
working directly with SOBEPS in Belgium.  I also checked with him about the
other Hard Copy allegations concerning the Stealth being identified as the
triangular-shaped craft.  This is erroneous also.  At last check, the report
coming from Col. DeBrouwer (sp?) was accurate, and the anomaly is still
classified as unidentified or TRUFO.  Any further information you might find
on this publication may shed some light on this.

Mike

--
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Subject: Koa
Date: 5 Apr 91 21:55:00 GMT


 > How did the KOA appearance go?

Extremely well received!  I was scheduled for one hour.  At the end of the
first hour the host says, "The lines are melting with people wanting to get on
with you.  Can you stay on into the next hour?"  I was on for a total of 90
minutes, and out of all of the callers, there was only one who tried to crack
a joke about the only saucers that she had seen were the ones her two kids
through out the kitchen widow while doing dishes.

The caliber of calls was very high, and I found most people calling in to have
had some type of sighting experience -- not the kook stuff -- and were
genuinely interested in wanting to gain an understanding of what it might have
been.

Mike

--
Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
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INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Tyson Mitchiner)
Subject: Re: Bill Cooper
Date: 4 Apr 91 04:38:00 GMT


 >  > much information in or your brain will pop out"
 >  > concept.
 >  > Our mind  supposedly has unlimited storage capacity.
 >
 > Yea Tyson, that may be, but still, that does not mean that
 > you don't question, and research. Do you believe EVERYTHING
 > you hear?  If so, I got this really GREAT car that I am
 > selling, and BOY* * * can YOU BUY it CHEAP. You send me a
 > check, I send you the papers-----OK?

  Well, I never stated that you disbelieve everything you hear.. I was just
trying to point out the danger in using the "mind so open the brains flutter
out" concept.. It gives an excuse to ignore possible information.  I sound too
serious sometimes, and I apologize if I seemed too vehement in my post.

   My point isn't that you should believe or disbelieve anything. My point is
that you should consider all sources of information.. and if there is not
sufficient (or reasonable) proof to disbelieve it, then it shouldn't be
dismissed totally.  However, there are some claims that do not have to be
researched into, for they seem to be a waste of time (like the aliens are
"demons" type).  I agree with you totally on that.  I also never lead myself
to believe any information if I do not have sufficient proof of it also.. I just
consider it, and try to learn more information about it, and hopefully gain
more proof for or against it.

                                Tyson

--
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Don Ecker)
Subject: Re: Proof
Date: 4 Apr 91 16:23:00 GMT

Jim:

I will try once more.

First, you do not have to convince me that there are events
happening with regard to unidentified flying somethings. I
( once more with feeling ) had a dramatic sighting in 1966.
WHAT I DID SAY WAS THAT NEITHER YOU, ME, WENDELLE STEVENS,
WHITLEY STRIEBER, BUDD HOPKINS, WM. MOORE, NOR ANYONE ELSE
*** K N O W S *** where these damn things come from, and IF
YOU DO, YOU BETTER CALL THE NATIONAL ENQUIRER, they will pay
you a chunk of cash IF YOU CAN SHOW ( get ready, here it
comes ) ****** P R O O F ******* of what they are and where
they come from.

Ok, that is it, I said my piece and IT IS NOW BURIED.

DON

--
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jerry Driscoll)
Subject: Re: Thanks, Jerry!
Date: 5 Apr 91 11:53:00 GMT

In a message to Jerry Driscoll <04-03-91 21:01> Clark Matthews wrote:

CM> I have just completed the migration to Imail 1.10 and am
CM> now experiencing no problems whatever.  In fact, Imail
CM> managed to recover many, many bad messages and posted them
CM> correctly.  It's an excellent program, extremely
CM> zone-smart, and it sets up with menus that are almost
CM> foolproof (I am living proof of the foolproofness).

I have heard about this Imail thingy... and I might take a look at it...

Zmail 1.14, and 1.13, for that matter, are supposed to have too many bugs,
and alot of the Zmail users, including Joe Lindstrom, who is the Canadian
Rep for Zmail, have gone back to Zmail 1.12...   Joe is very unhappy with
having to use Zmail 1.12...   He is a very happy RA user, and is very
unhappy with the Zmail 1.12 tearline [ZMailQ 1.13 (QuickBBS)]... :-)

Jerry

--
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Elizabeth Anderson)
Subject: Re: Thanks, Jerry!
Date: 6 Apr 91 03:49:00 GMT

Hey Clark!!!!


CM> tell Elizabeth that I will contact Ft. Smith Chamber of
                                           ^^^^^

It is NOT Fort Smith!!!! It is Fort Simpson!!!!! You confuse everybody if
you write to the wrong chamber of commerce!!!


Get it right, man! 8-)


Elizabeth

--
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: vm1.yorku.ca!YSCS1296
Subject:      Carp.UFO revisited
Date: 6 Apr 91 22:21:30 GMT

From: User <[e-mail]>

I came across the book 'Nostradamus predicts the end of the world' in a
local bookstore recently.
Apparently, the predictions listed as Nostradamus' armageddon story is
almost completely similar to the 'warnings' given in Don Ecker's file
CARP.UFO (though not written by Don).
The Nostradamus predictions tell of an invasion of combined Arab and
Chinese forces, spearheaded by an attack from the Artic, and with the
flagship bacteriological weapons.
The book may be a hyped-up version of the original Nostradamus
predictions, but there is definitely a correlation between it and
CARP.UFO - and in fact, the author of that file might have been
influenced by those predictions as opposed to reading some kind of
'secret' government documents.
I cannot comment on the alleged c/r of the alien starfighter.
However, mind manipulation via ELF EM pulses is possible.  I have
read about it somewhere else, and such technology can feasibly alter
the subconscious and/or manipulate subliminally.
Finally, the Nostradamus predictions indicated a fall of Israel at the
hands of the invading forces (also that Italy will be the first target
in the European communities).
The problem I have with the way things are going is that it seems that
the bible predictions were correct in that Babylon would fall at the
hands of the forces of good (the U.S.?!) but if so then how can Israel
fall?
In any case, we'll all know whether or not we're just wasting our time
on Paranet discussing all of this stuff in about 10 years' time.
Within ten years, I should say.




--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: Re: Serios Business
Date: 5 Apr 91 14:09:00 GMT

OK, Dan, you've convinced me. I shall look for the much-vaunted *second
edition* of the World of Ted Serios.

In the meantime, I shall review Martin Gardner's "Science: Good, Bad
and Bogus" and may excerpt a few things from it for your reading
"pleasure." Mind you, I'm no great fan of Gardner's, and if I run
something of his up the flagpole, its because I'm really hoping it can
be shot down - personally I think the guy is the most pompous of the
CSICOP hit-men. But I will be looking for bulls-eyes on Eisenbud's
part.

Jim
--
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INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: Re: THEY'RE HERE!!!!
Date: 5 Apr 91 14:10:00 GMT

> They're Here!

And they look like the Michelin Tire Man!
--
Jim Speiser - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: Re: (none)
Date: 6 Apr 91 07:08:00 GMT

Scott:

I'm slowly getting more and more turned off by this case. Your message
didn't help too much.

First of all, there's this:

> They include one fireman (one of several who saw it that day) and three
> civilians.  These witnesses are not looking for publicity and will not
> let Gordon release their names to the media for fear of ridicule.

I am going to check this with Cindy Bowles, who helped produce the
segment for Unsolved Mysteries, but I believe at least two of the
firemen did use their real names on that segment. And they certainly
didn't take great pains to disguise themselves on a national TV
broadcast. Somehow I think the people of Kecksburg, the people who are
most apt to ridicule them, know who they are.

> Never mind that scientist Ivan T. Sanderson traced the flight >
pattern of the UFO and discovered it made a controlled 25-degree turn in
> Ohio and headed for Pennsylvania (Fate Magazine, arch 1966). Not a >
typical movement of a satellite crashing back to Earth.

As I understand it, (and PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong), such
calculations are made from a composite of eyewitness accounts. I'm
sorry, but I don't see how a conclusion can be drawn from a bunch of
people saying, "it went that-a-way." The margin of error for such
observations would be right around 25 degrees, I think.

> so states before crash-landing. But he failed to mention that Sanderson
> estimated the object's speed at 1062.5 miles per hour. PASU did a

Do you have any information on just how Sanderson was able to arrive at
this "estimate"? Did he aim a radar gun at the thing or what?

> concluded that at most the object was moving at a speed of 5257 miles
> per hour. Neither estimate comes anywhere near the minimum speed for a
> meteor which is approximately 27,000 miles per hour. Witnesses to the

Where does that figure come from? I'm not challenging it, I'm genuinely
curious if that's an accurate figure - if so, it impacts some other
famous cases. If not...then of course it doesn't belong here. (I wish I
had been paying attention in Meteoritics 101!)

> Anyhow, why would numerous local fire companies, the
> Pennsylvania State Police, the U.S. Air Force, the 662nd Radar Squadron,
> and various other military officials gravitate to the village of
> Kecksburg to recover a rock from space? What happened to this alleged
> meteor? Why did it have to be removed that night? And why all the
> secrecy?

I remember seeing a bright bolide around 1966. My parents and I (I was
10) were coming out of Manero's restaurant in Old Greenwich, CT, when my
mother looked up and froze. I followed her gaze and saw a multi-colored
object arcing down towards the earth, breaking up as it fell. My mother
immediately said, "Its a UFO!"  I calmly replied, "No, Mom, its a
meteor." (At 10, I was probably the youngest subscriber to NICAP's UFO
Investigator!) As we drove home, we were passed by various fire and
emergency vehicles, headed north towards the apparent ground zero. It
looked very much as if the object had fallen on North Greenwich. Turned
out later, it had fallen somewhere near the Canadian border, 600 miles
north. This is a common occurence with bolide sightings - they often do
seem to be headed towards your backyard.

> was stationed at Lockborne Air Base near Columbus, Ohio, who claims the
> base was put on 'red alert' during the early morning hours of December

Can't this be verified somehow?

> Several days later, a witness reported seeing the object at
> Wright-Patterson. Reporter Sharon Santus writing in the Greensburg
> Tribune-Review (Dec. 9, 1990) writes:

As Young says, where WERE these people in 1965?

+ Another witness, Ohio truck driver John Cummings (not his real name),
+ said he actually saw the object inside a building at Wright-Patterson
+ on Dec. 12, 1965, just three days after the alleged landing.

+Cummings, who made deliveries for a Dayton-area building-supply company,
+said a high-ranking military officer arrived at the firm on Dec. 11,
+1965, and ordered a special radiation-, moisture-resistant brick for
+construction of a protective room inside a building at Wright-Patterson.
+
+Cummings said he and a cousin delivered 6,500 bricks to Wright-Patterson
+the next day after being instructed by their boss not to discuss
+anything they might observe at the compound.
+
+'We were unloading the bricks onto pallets and me and my cousin decided
+to sneak inside to see what all the secrecy was about,' Cummings said.
+'Guards immediately ordered us out ... but not before we saw it.'

Come on, Scott. An anonymous truck driver and his cousin claim to have
snuck into see a recovery operation shrouded in the secrecy of "the most
highly classified project in the US - higher than the H-bomb" (Wilbur
Smith). You're buying this? I've read your work in the past, you're a
more responsible researcher than that.

So what do we have? A few scattered eyewitness reports, dubious
measurements by a scientist of dubious credentials (isn't Sanderson the
guy who claims to have seen dinosaurs and giant bats in Africa?), a
truck driver and his cousin saying, "yeah, we seen it too", and a couple
of firemen who try to protect their identity by going full-face on
national TV. I was impressed with this case before, and I am still
impressed with the quality of work Stan Gordon has done in general, but
I hope you guys can put up a better defense to Young's article than the
above.

In the spirit of constructive debate,
   Jim Speiser


--
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INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Steve Rose)
Subject: THEY'RE HERE!!
Date: 6 Apr 91 04:38:00 GMT

In a message to All <04 Apr 91 14:52> well.sf.ca.us!ddrasin wrote:

 we>                                                       \../
 we>                                                       =oo=
 we>                      #                              m  \/  w
 we>                    #_#                               \(__)/
 we>__________________    # #                             ^(__)^
 we>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\   #_#                             ^(__)^
 we>                   \__#__________________             _/  \_
 we>                    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\____________'____'________
 we>                                          ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Your rendition of 'Teenage Mutant Ninja Ants'?




--
Steve Rose - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Pete Porro)
Subject: Re: SS433
Date: 5 Apr 91 16:44:00 GMT

Really I wanted to say I dug out something which may quell some of the
mystery on SS433. I'm not big on this so please excuse inadvertant errors and
my lousy spelling.

Sanduleak-Stephenson 433:
 From Science News Vol 117, page 140.

"The facts are that a compact radio source was found. It's position agrees with
the optical position to within 1/100 of a second of arc. For the record that
position is right ascension 19 hours 9 minutes 21.29 seconds, declination +4
(degrees) 53' 54" .07. The radio output varies on a cycle of 6.6 days,
something not explained in the models for its optical behavior."

"SS433 has three sets of emission lines. One of them stays still in apparent
wavelengths, as the emission spectrum of an ordinary star should. Two of them
gradually change, shifting redwards, then bluewards, then back again."

I won't take more time on this, but it appears that reptiles from outer space
are not comming to take over Earth, and SS433-W50 is interesting and possibly
something new that we have not observed before. The article mentions that
variations in redshifts produce two symmetrically opposed cycles. I'm sure
there is more current study information, but I just happened across this and
thought it might be of interest.

From: GREGG GILLIS

The object called SS433 is a small stellar object located approximately 18,000
light years in distance from our Solar System.  It is surrounded by a supernova
remnant named W50 (R.A. 19h 09m 20s and Dec. 4 degrees 55'). It is suggested
that SS433 might be a candidate for a 'black hole' with an accretion disk
orbited by another star that is feeding the black hole. In any case, SS433 is
emitting two jets of gas... which is yielding a curious spectral signature (red
shift/blue shifted lines at the same time). This object emits hard X-rays and
strong radio waves... both very common for this type of stellar object.

Sources:   The Invisible Universe Revealed, by Gerrit L. Verschuur.
pp 174-185.  ISBN: 3-540-96280-8.

           'Accretion-Driven Stellar X-ray Sources', from the Cambridge
           AstroPhysics Series, by Dr. P. J. Van den Heuvel.
           pp 289-301.  Chapter 7 "SS 433" by Bruce Margon, Astronomy
           Department, Univ. Washington.  ISBN: 0-521-24521-4.

           'The X-Ray Universe', by Tucker and Giacconi. Harvard Univ Press.
           ISBN: 0-674-96285-0
           (page 99 has references to SS Cygni type stars, which SS 433 is
           of that type).

           'COSMOS', by Carl Sagan.  Page 242.  ISBN: 0-394-50294-9

           'STARS - Voyage through the universe', by TIME-LIFE books.
           Reference page: 120, lower left corner.
           ISBN: 0-8094-6858-1

Well....  that's the only references I could find in 20 minutes.  But suffice
it to say....  there is PLENTY of REAL information about this object.

Cheers!

The first part of the message is from Pete Porro second part Gregg Gillis.
It's a canned answer because the question keeps comming up. I wish I had a
whole disc of stock answers explaining where to start on investigation of
<blank>. Hopes this explains the name, and where you might find more.
--
Pete Porro - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Pete Porro)
Subject: Re: SERIOS BUSINESS
Date: 5 Apr 91 16:49:00 GMT

Arthur C. Clark pretty well says this was a con job, using the tube for
holding small parts of photos. I have not read the book, so my answer is only
a reference to someone who I have seen accept some very unusual occurances,
and still be able to say some things are probably hoaxes. He did a whole show
on mysterious photos. It's shown on the Discovery Channel from time to time,
Thursday evenings at 7pm (cst) and repeats on Saturday. I record all the
shows because they air at the same time as "The Simpsons" and I can't miss
that!  8*)
--
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: eniac.seas.upenn.edu!snelson
Subject: Human visitors
Date: 7 Apr 91 08:19:13 GMT

From: [e-mail] (Steven Nelson)



        Why are the visitors so humanlike? Given the complexity of the
evolutionary process, the odds that aliens would have such a human shape as is
commonly reported seems rather implausible. Parallel evolution adapts creatures
that live in similar environments to similar shapes, yet certainly there's no
reason to assume that our planet and any alien planet would be remotely
similar.
        I hold out, at present, no explanations. I would not invalidate the
phenomenon based on this point, but I find that this datum, which many
researchers seem to ignore, is essential to understanding the UFO phenomenon.

        I use Whitley Streiber's term 'visitors' simply because it is less
committal than the term 'aliens.'

Does anyone have any comments?

-Steve




--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Charles Mcelhinney)
Subject: Re: SERIOS BUSINESS
Date: 6 Apr 91 14:19:00 GMT

PP> Arthur C. Clark pretty well says this was a con job, using
PP> the tube for holding small parts of photos. I have not read
PP> the book, so my answer is only a reference to someone who I
PP> have seen accept some very unusual occurances, and still be
PP> able to say some things are probably hoaxes. He did a whole
PP> show on mysterious photos. It's shown on the Discovery

    I've seen Clarke's show also and have read a few of his books.  On the
show, he comes across as quite the skeptic.  In fact, everything on that
show he trys his best to blow out of the water.  However, he is a great and
unusual man who writes a very good story.

--
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Subject: Re: Mail Problems
Date: 5 Apr 91 22:13:00 GMT

Elizabeth, thanks for the re-post!

Actually, the problem had nothing to do with your message -- it had to do
with MY software, which turned your message into hamburger.

So thanks again for the into -- I'll let you know the info I glean.

Best,
  Clark

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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Subject: Re: A SETI Update
Date: 6 Apr 91 00:19:00 GMT

va>Silvio Conte (R-MA): 'We don't need to spend $6 million this year
va>to  find  evidence of these rascally creatures. We only need  75
va>cents  to  buy  a tabloid at the  local  supermarket. Conclusive
va>evidence  of  these  crafty critters can  be  found at checkout
va>counters  from coast to coast. [Mr. Conte then entered into the
va>Congressional   Record  five  articles  on  UFOs from tabloid
va>publications.]


How amusing for him!  Of course, Conte became greatly exercised the
following week, when the media called his attempted murder of the NASA SETI
appropriation "The Search For Congressional Intelligence".

Still you can't blame Silvio -- $6 million spent unraveling the secrets of
the universe is $6 million that won't be here to pay for Congressional
junkets...

va>I had heard Conte was unfriendly to the concept, but I
va>didn't know it was
va>this bad.  But didn't he die a couple months ago?

... only from the neck up.

Why are politicians always such self-serving poltroons?

Best,
  Clark

--
Clark Matthews - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Subject: ''The Search For Schroedinger's Cat''
Date: 6 Apr 91 05:11:00 GMT


 > If you want to read about other dimensions, try The Search for
 > Schroedinger's Cat.
 >
 > And after you've done that, read the file REALITY.ASC from
 > KeelyNet, on
 > Bohm's holographic model of the universe and Pribram's
 > holographic model of
 > the mind.  Excellent work!  (Maybe Clark or I should post it,
 > although it's
 > not UFO-related.  Comments?)
 >


Jim, you're a mind-reader!  I am planning to follow up on the
posting of the Gravity Coil with a posting of REALITY!

There was only limited response to the gravity coil post, but it was
scholarly & interesting.  Bohm's paper should be at least as
provocative, eh?

Best,
  Clark

--
Clark Matthews - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Subject: Resonant Coil Implications?
Date: 6 Apr 91 05:23:00 GMT


 > From: vanth![e-mail] (Jim Shaffer)
 >
.......
 > someone tell me exactly what can happen within the distorted
 > space-time
 > that this Resonant Coil produces?  What are the implications?
.......
 > antigravity field with this coil, everything I've heard seems
 > to indicate
 > that such a coil is supposed to be able to modify the
 > fundamental
 > characteristics of matter itself.

Well, not so much the fundamental *characteristics* of matter, just
its *boundaries*.  This is what I've been told by an experimenter.
In other words, power up the coil and turn it off suddenly and the
objects around the coil will be physically altered, possibly
displaced.

I agree that the only real test of this device will be a documented
test of the device.  [...a quote from the guidelines of the
Department of Redundancy Department]

Funding, plans, materials and a safe test space are needed to do
this, and all of these issues are being addressed right now.

Stay *tuned*, Jim. :-)

Best,
  Clark

--
Clark Matthews - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Subject: Serios Business
Date: 6 Apr 91 05:33:00 GMT


 >
 > evidence for fraud, and many hundreds of photographs as
 > evidence
 > of Serios' 'talents.' One of the key evidential factors was
 > the
 > *distortions* of space and time in many of the photos --
 > 'dream-like' or "imagination-like" distortions and seamless
 > composite images that positively could not have been faked by
 > any
 > mechanical means under the circusmtances. Also, many photos
 > were
 > made with the cameras at quite some distance from Serios, and
 > in the
 > hands of the investigators. Some of the pictures appeared as
 > if
 > taken from 'impossible' angles; from places where the cameras
 > had
 > never been positioned. There's more, too. *Much* more.
 > Including a
 > lot of pictures not previously published.
 >

Hi!  This message exchange is very interesting!  I wonder, is anyone
familiar with the collection of "ghost" or "spirit" photos in the
possession of the Warrens of Monroe Connecticut?  Yes, I'm talking
about the same Warrens who were involved in the Amityville Horror
fiasco, among other high-profile "hauntings", exorcisms, etc.

Some of their photos are really remarkable -- often they're "bad"
drugstore-type pix taken by people who later realize how very
strange the photos are. Many of the same characteristics of the
Serios photos, including impossible angles, bizarre juxtaposed
images, faces, etc.

I should add that the pictures range in age from 90 years or more to
quite recent.  Whatever you thing about the Warrens' other interests
("demonology", possessions, etc.), the photos are definitely worth a
look.  They take a good sampling of them on their lecture tours.

Best,
  Clark

--
Clark Matthews - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Subject: Re: Thanks, Jerry!
Date: 6 Apr 91 23:25:00 GMT


 > CM> tell Elizabeth that I will contact Ft. Smith Chamber of
 >                                            ^^^^^
 >
 > It is NOT Fort Smith!!!! It is Fort Simpson!!!!! You confuse
 > everybody if you write to the wrong chamber of commerce!!!
 >


Well, in the words of America's elder statesman Richard Nixon, when
confronted with the Watergate Tapes:

"You know what I said...but *I* know what I meant"   :-)

Best,
  Clark

--
Clark Matthews - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



********To have your comments in the next issue, send electronic mail to********
                      'infopara' at the following address:

UUCP  {ncar,isis,boulder}!scicom!infopara
DOMAIN  [e-mail]
ADMIN Address [e-mail]
  {ncar,isis,boulder}!scicom!infopara-request

******************The**End**of**Info-ParaNet**Newsletter************************


                Info-ParaNet Newsletters   Volume I  Number 388

                            Tuesday, April 9th 1991

Today's Topics:

                                   Hi, Gene!!!
                                 THEY'RE HERE!!
                             RE: FCC MODEM CHARGE...
                              'Either-Or' Thinking
                              The Grey Men Tape (1)
                              The Grey Men Tape (2)
                              The Grey Men Tape (3)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Subject: Hi, Gene!!!
Date: 6 Apr 91 23:29:00 GMT


Howarya, guy!

Long time, no type.  I see you're still at DG in RTP!

I have my own BBS now, complete with mailer & ParaNet feeds.

I'll give you a call sometime.  Still have the number...

Best,
  Clark

PS -- I've got lots of interesting Alt. Tech files, the usual "defy
gravity and take long weekends in other dimensions" stuff.  You
might find them interesting.

--
Clark Matthews - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Subject: THEY'RE HERE!!
Date: 7 Apr 91 08:45:00 GMT


 > AREA:INFO.PARANET
 > In a message to All <04 Apr 91 14:52>
 > well.sf.ca.us!ddrasin wrote:
 >
 >  we>                                                       \../
 > we>                                                       =oo=
 > we>                      #                              m  \/  w
 > we>                    #_#                               \(__)/
 > we>__________________    # #                             ^(__)^
 > we>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\   #_#                             ^(__)^
 > we>                   \__#__________________             _/  \_
 > we>                    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\____________'____'________
 > we>                                          ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
 >
 > Your rendition of 'Teenage Mutant Ninja Ants'?
 >

Teenage Mutant Alien Michelin-Men, maybe?

--
Clark Matthews - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: cwns1.ins.cwru.edu!ak842
Subject: RE: FCC MODEM CHARGE...
Date: 8 Apr 91 11:36:26 GMT

From: [e-mail] (Douglas Dever)


 Oh geez... not this letter *again!*  When I first started using my modem
(about a year ago) i ran across this letter and uploaded it to all the
boards in the 216 area code.  Well... it really wasn't a way to get off to
a good start with the Sysop's because they thought I was just trying to
cause problems.... Oh well....
Whoever started that letter should get an award!  As I hear it, about once
a year that letter makes it from coast-to-coast.  Someone panics and ul's
it to an echo, and next thing you know is it's coming back again!
(It's heeeeerrreeee!)  In conclusion, the letter *is false* and should be disregarded.

***** Proud Member of The Cleveland Free-Net UFOlogy SIG *****

--
*** Douglas A. Dever *** [e-mail]
The IRC Awards: The Finest in Telecommunications (Coming to a chat near you)
As always: I can not be held responsible for the opinons I *** IRC CHAT NICK:
Express for I have foot in my mouth disease.         :)    ***    Niltsiar




--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: well.sf.ca.us!ddrasin
Subject: 'Either-Or' Thinking
Date: 8 Apr 91 11:37:07 GMT

From: [e-mail] (Dan Drasin)

+ There is also the less-popular alternate theory that says that the
+ explanation for ufos is 'spiritual,' that is, only a small part of
+ the manifestations are actually physical, and everything else is
+ spectral (manipulations of light/ radar/magnetism/etc by 'spirit'
+ or extra-dimensional creatures who have some bizarre otherworldly
+ purpose for 'spooking' us on a regular basis).  This theory would
+ be dealt a serious blow by the recovery of a working alien
+ spacecraft.  ;^)


Huh? Steve, run that one by me again. Isn't that kind of like saying
that the existence of dogs would be dealt a serious blow by the
recovery of a cat?

Isn't it clear at this point that what we call UFOs arise from a
*variety* of causes and that we can expect to encounter some
profound surprises about the nature of reality in the process of
inquiring into this complex mystery?

If I were some conspirator hell-bent on short-circuiting the truth
about UFOs the first thing I'd do is promote 'either-or' thinking in
the ufological community. If I knew that the truth spanned a *range*
from 'A' to "Z" I'd do my best to get everyone factionalized and
arguing over whether it was 'A' *OR* "B." Then I'd send in a
'peacemaker' to argue that people really need to consider *both*
sides of the issue -- as if there were only two.  Get the picture?

Hmmmm... Maybe one way to discover what's going on would be to
reverse the roles and play 'devil's advocate.' What would happen if
members of Paranet sent in suggestions about how *they* would
de-rail the investigation into UFO phenomena. Might be interesting,
and fun!

Dan Drasin

[e-mail]




--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Gregory B Lush)
Subject: The Grey Men Tape (1)
Date: 8 Apr 91 22:02:08 GMT

From: [e-mail] (Gregory B Lush)

Well, I broke down.  Here is an excerpt from one of the Phoenix
Journals.  It is included in both 'Space-Gate--The Veil Removed'
and in 'Spiral to Economic Disaster' from America West Publ.

I ask you to note the date of writing for this
document.  The scribe who receives the radio frequencies from Hatonn
is 'Dharma.'  Also, when Hatonn seems to "predict" in this writing,
he is guessing based on probabilities.  You must remember that humans
are in control of these plans, so these humans have the ability to
change of the probabilities.  The Pleidians speak of two types of
'grey men.'  One is our familiar little grey aliens, the other is a
reference to International Bankers.  Any highlighting is Hatonn's, not
mine.  Enjoy.  Read it slowly and carefully, and read it again.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

For verification of some aspects of this information, I recommend
the following excerpts from Editorial Research Reports
(A publication of our Congress) available at your public library.

OPEC:  10 years after the Arab oil boycott.  Sept. 23, 1983.
World Debt Crisis.  Jan. 21, 1983.

and

the following from the Congressional Record,

December 5, 1979; pages 34793-4:  An account of the Connection between
  Rockefeller, Carter, Kissinger, Chase Manhattan Bank, and how the
  Shah's money was removed from Iran.

December 20, 1979; pages 37630-2, 37640-2:  Accounts of Sen. George
  Hansen's trip to Iran to negotiate with Iranians for the release
  of the hostages.

It is up to you to decide whether our Congress is a more credible
source of information than a Pleidian is.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

  Greg


                        THE GREY MEN TAPE

This is an edited transcription of a lecture taped April 23, 1988.
The information is valid and, if anything, more easily recognized
today--Hatonn.

I will be utilizing this information again when speak of economics,
but for now, I will modify from the audio tape to save time and repetition.

Let us call the group which has elaborate, and successful, plans to rule
your nation and your world, the Internationalists.  When I refer to the
Internationalists I am referring to a very elite group of about twelve
to thirteen 'families'.  These "families" hold your "purse strings"--zipper
and lock, to all the bags of money in your world.  Sound impossible?
Nay, it is not only possible, it is extremely easy to visualize after
I have explained it to you.

As I move along, I will give you some names and places whereby you can
check it out on an individual basis.  I wish never to place any human
at risk, however, so in all instances I will only refer to those
already having come forth with 'public' statements or information.

I will also have to explain a few terms used to have any sense of
continuity.  Therefore, as we move along, forgive me of any digression in
attempt to give definition, i.e., 'fractional banking'.

First, you must fully come into understanding that there truly ARE the
elite few, with plans well foundationed and functioning, who control both
the world financial markets and ultimately will control all peoples of
the world.  Do not err in your thoughts by thinking I am speaking of
'someone else in the world', I speak more for the United States of
America than I do of the remainder of your world.

As I pull portions of the puzzle together for this document
I shall again be referring to such groups as Trilateral Commission,
the Council of Foreign Relations, and the Bilderburgers.  Forgive me
if I am repetitious.  I may need to be repetitious in order to fit the
pieces in proper perspective.

You must know that there ar certain families (literally) that control
the hard currency.  The countries wherein these families abide are known
as hard currency countries.  These thirteen families have control of the policy
making and the decision making of the central banks of those countries.
They are owners, these families, of the majority of the stock of the regional
banks of the Federal Reserve System.  'Federal Reserve' would indicate to the
more uninformed, that this is a Federal Government Branch.  This is untrue,
the Federal Reserve System is NOT a branch of your federal government.
Just as these families control the regional banks of the Federal Reserve
System, they also control the currencies that are not allowed to
fluctuate.  Note here that the American dollar is the standard against which all
other currency is measured.  All other nations ar affected according
to the changing values of the dollar.  Not only do these families control
the currencies, but they likewise control the banks.  This, friends,
is in all the leading nations of your world.

For ease of understanding, let us just consider the industrialized
nations at this point.  I will also need to explain fractional banking to
you, because without understanding the lending system you cannot get the
picture properly.  All of the banks  under control of these families
practice fractional banking--and beyond--(sometimes there is no hard
money present at all).  But, let us explain by example on a personal level.

                            FRACTIONAL BANKING

This is actually referred to as fractional 'reserve' banking.  Lenders
are allowed to loan a maximum of up to 20 to one.  This is perfectly
legal, practiced by every lending institution in America and elsewhere.

Example:  Mr. A goes to his friendly banker, Mr. B, and deposits one
thousand dollars ($1000) into Mr. B's bank.  Mr. B's bank is a Savings
and Loan so Mr. A puts the $1000 into his own savings account.  The Savings
and Loan is required by your laws, to keep only 5% in reserve.  The are
allowed to loan out 95% of the money invested or 95% of that which is
placed into savings accounts.  This means of $1000 there is $950 which
is available to be loaned out.  In turn the Savings and Loan takes the
$950 and loans it to Mr. C to do some home repairs, let us say.  This
gentleman takes his borrowed $950 and goes to the local hardware/lumber
company and purchases supplies, lumber, nails, etc.

The lumber company carries on regular banking and therefore, he
goes to his bank with the $950 for deposit, to Band D.  Bank D is now
required to keep 5% but can load out 95% which would be $902.50.
Bank D now loans that to Mr. X who in turn filters it back into the
economy, let us suppose, through the grocery store and other
business stores.  He spends it and now we have that money end up in
Bank Z.  Bank Z is required keep 5%.  That means that Bank Z can loan
out $857.37.  It is again loaned and filtered back in to the economy.
This is continued right down to zero.  With your $1000 deposit those bankers
using fractional reserve banking are now allowed to loan out $20,229.60.
This is practiced by EVERY lending institution in America and elsewhere.
The amounts above do not include 'interest' on the money borrowed, only
the principle amount.

You must now keep it in mind that this results in an increase in the
money supply through the Federal Reserve System.  Your 'big boys' simply
turn up the speed of your money presses and run them a little faster
and faster in order to pump more in to the economy just to boost up the
fractional reserve banking.  Let me remind you to keep in mind that the
thirteen families control all of the hard currencies of the world and are
allowed to practice this fractional reserve banking--this will be important
as we move along.
     <Continued Next Message>





--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Gregory B Lush)
Subject: The Grey Men Tape (2)
Date: 8 Apr 91 22:09:41 GMT

From: [e-mail] (Gregory B Lush)

                                      THE OIL CRISIS

We will now talk about something referred to, on your planet, as
'System 2000', which is a Global Creditors Unilateral plan.  This plan went
into effect somewhere about the early 1970s.  At that time a pentagon
official and several other officials visited Nigeria.  They went to the Prime
Minister and paid him fifty million dollars ($50 million) to raise the price
of his oil to more than double.  Nigerian oil is 'light crude' of quality
such that it is almost pure enough to burn immediately, without distillation,
in automobiles.  This type of oil sets the price of oil for the entire world.
The $50 million was cash across the board with no repayment requirements
if Nigeria would double the price of light crude.

We will refer to this as light oil.  There are only two locations
in the world that have this light oil and, of course, it is the most valuable
oil in your world, therefore, it is the standard against which all other oil
in the world is measured.  So, whoever controlled the price of the light
oil at that time controlled the price of all of the oil in the world.

At this point, let us bring the Arabs into this scenario.  This will also bring
in the Trilateral Commission--that also includes Mr. Bush.  It was now time to
bring pressure and persuasion to OPEC.  What most of you Americans do not
remember is that the United States of America IS A MEMBER OF OPEC.  It is
kept most low profile.

At that time a 'deal was cut' with the Middle Eastern Oil Producers and
this is how it went; all buyers were prepared to pay significantly higher
prices for the oil--PROVIDED--all Middle Eastern nations supported the
United States of America, BY INVESTING THE REVENUES INTO THE BIG BANKS IN
AMERICA.

To make this picture clear, you must remember that the Arabs, who are
wealthy sheiks today, had been wandering around on camelback in a very
big desert.  They were nomads and they were certainly most unsophisticated
in business affairs.  Years earlier when the international bankers found
out that there was oil in their countries, they went forth and persuaded
the Arabs to allow them to produce the oil by financing the oil fields,
drilling, rigging--all supplies including expertise.

After the bankers financed the oil fields they then charged the Arabs
usury fees for building the supply systems--along with refineries.
The usury was quickly repaid because the Arabs became very rich,
very quickly.  (Way back then you were only paying about 30 cents
per gallon in your gasoline stations.)  Let us now take it further, you go
to Nigeria and pay them to double the price of light crude.  Unbeknownst
to the Arabs, those ones who had become wealthy overnight and didn't
know zero about business, much less international finance; the the el
nomads; you call them together and say, 'We will take the price of
crude just as high as you want it to go--IF--you will deposit an
established portion of the funds that you get from this NEW PROFIT RISE
IN 30 YEAR TIME CERTIFICATES IN CERTAIN MAJOR U.S. BANKS.

Perhaps you ones can now understand the problems you experienced in your
early 1970s.  Remember the gas lines and the prices of oil skyrocketing?
It was because the internation bankers, who hold the purses of the world, knew
that the increase in the price of oil that was going to the Arabs would
come rushing right back to their bank in 30 yer time certificates of deposit.

Turn now to the 30 year time deposits and let us examine the banker's plans.
Back in the late 70's and early 80's Sheik Ymani and his bunch had no
idea that there was a connection between those banks, or that they were the same
people that had the controlling interest of the major oil companies.  Do you
see what has been woven here?  After all, how could the camel riding nomads
realize the international bankers were 'having them' hook, line and up
to the fishing pole?  How could they possibly know that what was happening
through these oil companies, was that the monies were being cycled right back
into the selected, no exceptions, banking system?  They couldn't and they
didn't!

                              THE CONTROLLING TRUST

Going a long ways back now; in the 1870's the Rockefellers set up something
called a Joint Stock Trust.  Here I will add, this was just a brief period
of time before the American Government declared these trusts illegal.  BUT,
YOU SEE, THESE ONES COULD FUNCTION FOREVER UNDER WHAT YOU CALL A 'GRANDFATHER'
CLAUSE.  THAT BROTHERS, IS THE ULTIMATE CONTROLLING FACTOR IN AMERICA OF
THE PRIME BANKS AND THE FEDERAL RESERVE BOARD.  That 'trust' is in the
control of the Rockefeller Foundation, and, in turn controls the Federal
Reserve Bank and is the method whereby the Internationalists are able to gain
control of the currency of the U.S.A.

Does it begin to become reasonable that those New York banks ar showing
all time record earnings?  Yet, all around the rest of your country of the
U.S., banks and Savings and Loans are going broke and failing.  THAT, FRIENDS,
MEANS YOU ARE BEING MANIPULATED RIGHT ALONG WITH THE ARABS AND EQUALLY AS
BLINDLY--WITH NO RECOURSE.

Let us come back now, and speak of the deal which 'was cut' (Your ones in
power love that term)  with the Saudi Arabians and ones of the Middle East.
These ones were required to put their money into the prime banks; keep in
mind that they did not know that the prime banks were able to lend in
amounts of twenty to one.  (20 to 1 was quite a while ago, it is higher
at present.)  All they were receiving was the interest on the money they had
deposited.  Worse for them, in some of these countries it is unacceptable
to receive interest for religious reasons so they might wait thirty
years to get any money from their certificates of deposit.  In other words,
they did not know that this fractional type of banking could be done,
but through this, the bankers of the world were able to gain control of the
money of the Arab world, and in turn the Arab world only received back part
of the interest from the money that they placed into the International Banking
System--UNDER THESE 30 YEAR TIME DEPOSIT CERTIFICATES.

Through the money gained from the Arabs through the manipulation of the
price of oil, and taking the price of gasoline from, let us say, 30 cents
a gallon to $1.25 a gallon--there is a lot of money being made.  Now, with
that money returning into the international banks at 20 to 1, I think you can
see the staggering profits.  Let us face facts, friends, that money originally
came from YOU.  Because the bankers had locked in the deposits they were then,
in turn, able to make loans to third world nations.

                         ENTER THIRD WORLD NATIONS

Think back fifteen or twenty years ago when the International Bankers started
investing in third world country loans.  LOOK VERY CLOSELY AT THE COUNTRIES
WHICH ARE GOING BANKRUPT (COMPLETELY BROKE) TODAY.  IT WAS FULLY INTENDED
THAT THOSE COUNTRIES GO BROKE AND I WILL EXPLAIN THAT IN A LITTLE BIT.

You might wonder how I know so much.  Well, I have the best computer system
in the universe and all I have to do is key it up and it is spread out before
me.  My computers rarely reflect errors; only changes in 'probabilities' and
perturbations in human action and reactions.

I am sorry, friends, your friendly bankers set it up deliberately so that the
third world countries would go broke.  You have to pay attention to history and
look back to the time when those third world countries were beginning to gain
independence and setting up independent governments.  It was at such times that
these bankers loaned the upstarts great sums of money which actually had come
to them through the Arabs, basically.

The international bankers not only wanted, but insured, that these
borrowing countries would misuse the fundings.  It was fully intended
that the funds could be be mismanaged through greed and simply be squandered.
You must remember that the leaders of these countries had never governed
anything or anybody.  They knew nothing about government.  They had been
colonies under the governorship of other larger countries.

The international bankers knew that the leaders were bound to squander the
funds.  It was known they would have no way to know what to do with them
(and they were massive) and so the cycle goes.  They were actually squandering
money taken from you through the Arabs through high oil prices, etc.  Let us
now follow it on through.

 [Continued Next Article]





--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Gregory B Lush)
Subject: The Grey Men Tape (3)
Date: 8 Apr 91 22:13:55 GMT

From: [e-mail] (Gregory B Lush)

                               PUNISHING TEXAS

I will hereby digress to a story from Dharma's earth home state--Texas--most of
you have heard of it.  Let us go back some years (not too many) to jog
some memories.  Do you remember someone named John Connelly, who was
governor of Texas?  Do you recall that he was also in the vehicle and was
injured during John Kennedy's assassination?  Well, Mr. Connelly was also
Under Secretary of the Treasurer--he was a lot of things and titles.  These
ones with Mr. Connelly did a most fascinating thing--they planned to
implement a new currency for the State of Texas.  You see, Texas is a part
of the Union only through a renewable 'treaty'.  The treaty is automatically
renewed every year, but it isn't necessary that it be renewed.  That means,
friends, that the U.S. only has a treaty with Texas to keep it in the union
of states.  It was not voted in as were your other states.

Texas was at one time--I believe you term might be 'filthy rich'.  The state
was wealthy and there were many very, very wealthy individuals.  Rich
individuals such as the Hunt brothers, who actually had nothing originally,
but became extremely wealthy, overnight, by OIL.  That was all the way back
when oil was first struck and became so popular.

I am truly going to tie all this together but you must bear with me for there
are so many facets.  I must make it clear what I am going to say.  I will
explain to you why, if you don't already know, it was so very important to
ones of 'the opposition', and why there was an assassination attempt against
Mr. Connelly's life as well as Kennedy's.

Why are those men 'broken' today and a state in severe financial trouble?
It is because the Internationalists learned of what the Hunt brothers and
Mr. Connelly were trying to do.  Texas, a state by treaty, can legally
secede from your union.  The Hunt brothers and Mr. Connelly knew that
Texas had the ability to set up their own country and have their own
currency.  That is why they could be solvent and not be under the dictates
of the Federal Reserve System.  Or, simply stated, under the control of
the international bankers.

At about the same time they were in the process of gaining a corner on the
silver of the world.  This was in order to finance a process whereby they
could overcome the international bankers and it was at that point the Hunt
brothers were smashed.  John Connelly was almost killed, and Texas, which could
have been the only state in the union to fulfill breaking out of the trap,
has been punished with some extremely major problems.  Today, portions of
Dallas and Fort Worth, Houston and other wealthy, wealthy cities have gone
on to resemble ghost towns in your Old West.  Ones who had grown rich in the
oil industry have been severely punished, the Hunts and Connelly are bankrupt.

The Internationalists became so incensed, so angry, at what these Texans had
done that they broke the back of the oil industry, and the major oil producers
of Texas.  It was a well designed plan and executed in perfection.

When ones attempt to interfere with the plans of the international bankers, you
can see what the results can be.  The Hunt brothers were working directly
with the Shah of Iran, on the above plan.  Immediately thereafter one of the
Texas bankers was killed, the Shah of Iran deposed, and the Hunt brothers
were forced into bankruptcy.

There are many ways the internation bankers can get revenge on ones who
attempt interference with their overall plan; through murder, or you might well
be placed into a mental institution and locked away permanently, or you can
have trumped up charges brought against you whereby you are locked away
indefinitely in prison.  This latter has also happened to numerous ones in the
'UFO' investigation circles who find and bring forth truth.  It is exactly
what happened to Colonel Wendelle Stevens.  Colonel Stevens probably has
investigated more UFO incidents than any other one individual.  Further,
an assassination plot was arranged and attempted while Colonel Stevens
was incarcerated.  Strangely, the perpetrator, who dressed as a religious
leader, was caught in the act, turned over to the FBI, and has never been
heard from again.  So be it.

                              THE SHAH'S DEATH

If you will recall, the Shah of Iran was in perfect health when he was
deposed and departed Iran.  He was only declared to be sick after he reached
the United States.  You were told he was being held in 'protective' custody
at a military base.  There, you were also told, he was being treated for his
illness--which was not present at the time of his arrival.  He died anyway,
didn't he?  Face it--his death was planned and the murder executed.

In your present months there is an international uproar over the use the of
chemical and germ warfare utilized Iran and Iraq.  Some of the viruses cannot
be traced--nor, in such above instances, would anyone dare to pursue it.

Who would question a man becoming ill, being treated and then expiring
unexpectedly?  Certainly no one in the United States would question it.
You were uncomfortable enough just having the man in your country.  Death
can most effectively be brought about in any number of non-traceable ways;
one of which is through micro-dots and variations of vibration frequencies,
as well through viruses.  (This is exactly what happened to Dharma, in
her own dwelling--causing cardiac arrest.  We just happen to have her under
constant monitoring for she is a receiver of several of us in this higher
frequency dimension; therefore, we can catch these attempts and counter
them.  Doesn't do much for the mental relaxation of the victim, however.)

              THE HOSTAGE STORY

You can get verification of these little stories from Senator John Hansen
of you own government.  I am going to speak of Iran and your people who were
taken hostage.  I doubt many of you have heard the truth of the matter.

Senator Hansen was in the House of Representatives in Washington, D.C.  He
knew what was happening in Iran and requested permission to go to Iran and
investigate.  Congress refused.  Mr. Hansen then purchased his own private
airline ticket and proceeded to Iran anyway.

When Senator Hansen arrived, the one Khomeni proffered an audience.  Guess
what Khomeni said?  He said, 'We don't want these hostages, certainly not any
more than you want us to have them'.  'As a matter of fact," Khomeni continued;
'I'd like to give you these hostages, at least half of them anyway, and you can
take them home with you tomorrow morning.  That is, Mr. Hansen, if you will
promise to begin an investigation into the relationship between the Shah of
Iran, Chase Manhatten Bank, Mr. Henry Kissinger and your President Carter.'

At this point, Senator Hansen was most delighted.  He rushed to call back
to the U.S. to someone who could give authorization and said 'Hey, I can
bring half of the hostages home tomorrow.  How shall I arrange it?'  The
person on the other end of the line said, 'Well, I will call you back
tomorrow and let you know.'  Now please guess what happened on the following
morning?  When the call was placed back to Mr. Hansen, he was told the
following, 'Get yourself on the next airplane coming to America.  Come home
immediately.  Do not bring hostages.  Do not do any negotiating.  You have no
right to speak on the part of the Congress of the United States of America
even if you are a congressman.  Get home immediately with no further discourse.'

Here is what he found upon his return to Washington--that the incident was
entered into the Congressional record.  Further he found that President
Carter knew the hostages were going to be taken and further--knew that they
were there for a reason and he was not to interfere.  Now, you ones get yourself
ready for a bomb if you have not already had access to this expose.  The
release of the hostages in Iran was negotiated by a negotiator of Chase
Manhattan Bank in New York, U.S.A.  All outside overt and covert attempts to
gain release was a facade.  Ask any marine who was involved in the military
efforts thereof.

Is it really any wonder to you ones that Iran is all ticked off at you today?
Those hostages, and America, were held in terror while bankers got the Shah's
money safely into their banks before the Shah was killed and then, in turn,
got much of the money belonging to Iran.  A pretty wicked way to get Iran's
money into the Chase Manhattan Bank to it could remain solvent and be one
of the wealthiest institutions in the entire world.

                           SLEIGHT OF HAND

The international banks formed bank 'holding companies' so that they could
not be held responsible.  The Chase Manhattan, Chemical Bank and J.P. Morgan's
bank were the predominant banks for money deposited by the Arabs.  The
holding companies were formed in order to loan out money to the third world
countries while knowing full well that the third world countries were going
to go broke.

After the Shah had been destroyed and the money was safely in the banks, there
were massive amounts of money loaned to third world countries.  These notes
were shifted from the banks to the bank holding companies in anticipation
of the eventual bankruptcy of the borrowing countries.

One holding company was for the purpose of loaning money to the third world
countries.  The purpose of the second holding company was to borrow money
from the international bank in order to purchase agricultural lands.  That
means you farms and also certain corporations in the United States.  The
farms and businesses will probably continue to make some money, but the third
world countries are destined to go down.  This is ongoing, dear ones, not a
passing fancy.

    [Continued Next Message]




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******************The**End**of**Info-ParaNet**Newsletter************************


                Info-ParaNet Newsletters   Volume I  Number 389

                            Tuesday, April 9th 1991

Today's Topics:

                              The Grey Men Tape (4)
                              The Grey Men Tape (5)
                              The Grey Men Tape (6)
                                   Disclaimer
                                Re: A SETI Update
                      ''The Search For Schroedinger's Cat''
                                 Serios Business
                                 Belgian Reports
                          physics, orders of magnitude
                           Re: Gravitational magnetism
                                     Re: Koa
                                    Ivan Sanderson
                                 SERIOS BUSINESS
                     Question from a UFOlogy Sig User - Help
                                     Re: Koa

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Gregory B Lush)
Subject: The Grey Men Tape (4)
Date: 8 Apr 91 22:15:26 GMT

From: [e-mail] (Gregory B Lush)

                        WATCH THE HANDS

We are going to now consider currency on a world basis.  We will also point
out why some of the monetary plans and money making formats are valid and
viable.

Let us speak a bit about Mr. Marcos who was recently deposed from the
Phillipines.  This is most typical, friends, so watch the hands closely.
A representative of the international bankers' bank went to those ones and
said, 'Mr. Marcos, we will forgive all of your loans.  You cannot pay them
back, you cannot pay back the interest, you can't pay back the principle,
but, we would like to make you a bargain.  We will just forgive the loans.'

Digress time: remember, who did that money belong to that they loaned out
to these third world places?  It was not the bankers'.  Well, of course,
it was all that Arab money, because of the higher prices that the people all
over the world had paid.  So, back to what the bankers say, 'We'll just
forgive your loans, the principle and the interest and you never have
to pay it back--IF (ALWAYS THE IF)--.  The 'if' goes about as follows:
You have to do away with your national currency, whatever it is.  The dollar
will be your currency basis of value.  You will be set up with a type of
debit card system instead of the usual currency system.  Then, too, you
must give us perpetual rights to all of the natural resources in your
country.

Interestingly enough, it was right after that little gift gesture; that
friendly little suggestion, that Mr. Marcos was deposed.  Why do you
suppose that happened?  Well, Mr. Marcos was pretty feisty and he told the
international bankers where they could go right after they got immediately
out of his country.  He had no intention of giving them sovereignty
over his country and look what happened.

Everyone in that country found that suddenly their social security number
was synonymous with their credit number; further, their central bank
was to act as a wholesaler for credit, which in turn, was extended to it by
the new super bank which was announced by your Mr. Paul Volker in the fall
of 1985.  That was ratified immediately by President Reagan.  Just a fun
aside for you who love to play with numbers and speculate about
coincidence--the names and numbers, the digits, added up to six.  Lots of
things around Mr. Reagan add up to sixes--even his retirement home address.
I take very little stock in these things, but many of you seem to like the
game.  Also, because a President is not reelected does not mean he is
vanquished from the fray.

A further contingent condition of the benevolent gift, if you will, of the
International Monetary Fund, was that in order to help the economy of
those countries the IMF was going to nominate external, nondomestic
corporations to properly engineer, exploit and excavate the minerals of
those said countries who had just put those same mineral resources up as
collateral.  This would all, thereby, supposedly bring prosperity to those
striving nations.

Mr. Marcos was a bit sharper up front, however, and he pinpointed on the
word PERPETUAL in the contract.  He realized that quite obviously he would be
signing away the sovereignty of his nation.

I make no comment or judgement regarding Mr. Marcos as a person, nor do
I make comment about any individual--those ones are of human format, not
mine.  I am just telling you the way it is and how some things happened.

In the case of the Marcoses, it was only a matter of weeks before the
bankers brought down the guillotine blade.  Riots were financed by, and
originated through, ones of the international bankers' groups.  It is never
humanly wise to cross these ones; you see Mr. and Mrs. Marcos were
exploiting the people well enough on their own and did not wish to share.

                           WHERE DID THE MONEY GO?

Ah, let us not forget those holding companies of which I spoke.  Remember
holding companies one and holding companies two?  The second
group was receiving credit from the first group of holding companies to
purchase assets and liabilities from the 'prime' banks.  The only liabilities
they would purchase were liabilities represented by Certificates of Deposits
of the Arab nations.  The assets they were buying were loans made to the
debtor nations.  Remember, it was designed that third world countries would
default on the loans which would bankrupt the holding companies which
had purchased the Arab's CD's from the banks.

At such a point, the internation bankers say to the Arabs, 'OK fellows,
sorry, but all those billions of dollars in 30 year term deposits that
you have been depositing all these years are gone.  They were sold to a holding
company, unattached to us, which loaned the money to third world countries
which are bankrupt--broke--gone kaput.  Sorry, Mr. Arab, but as of today
you are bankrupt.  Just like that--all gone!'

You might ask, 'Is it possible for the Arab world to go bankrupt?  Really
now, the richest people in the world with all that oil?'  It is a little
bit shocking isn't it?  Poor souls, they didn't even know those CD's had
been 'sold' to those holding companies.  They had deposited the money right
into the New York bank as required.  How could they possibly know they were
transferred out and into bankruptcy destined companies?  How could they
understand the inner manipulations of international financiers?  They were
nomads, they didn't know anything about business.  One cannot even consider
them foolish.  How much of this intrigue do you know, much less understand?
The Arabs could not know what they were up against.  But now let us look at
what has happened.  Before the end of 1986 the Arab world became a bit aware
of what was happening to them.  The word went out that before May 1st, 1987
millions and millions had to be transferred out of the Arab world into
America, to start preparing for doomsday.  Money was to be shifted into any
kind of securities that were even half way decent.  Why do you think this
was so?  It was so that when the Arab sheiks came to the point of
bankruptcy they could be sure the people under them, those millions of
people of the Arab countries who have literally been 'kept' by give-away
programs, could not get at them.  They would have a place to run to and,
hopefully, hide.  Well, when this all comes down that these Arab countries
have literally been sold out, innocently or knowingly, there will be uprisings,
turmoil and literally, massacres abounding.  It is going to happen, friends,
right in the Arab nations.

This is why they have purchased, and set in place, silkworm type missiles
from China.  Long range, nuclear capable, and they have the nuclear devices
to arm them.  Could it be they will be needed against their own peoples?
The people are going to be quite irritated when the are no longer receiving
anything from the oil revenues, that their own country is bankrupt and that
further, they were sold out by their own leaders.  At that point there will
be mass migration of sheiks headed for America where they have already
transferred the most of their assets.

The Arabs were trying to make the big purchases by May of 1988; it is
now a year and a half later.  Do you not think things might be starting
to come down pretty soon?  Could it be relatively correlated in timing to
Savings and Loan problems and private pension plan troubles and failing
economy and - and -?

I continue to see problems as I look on my scanners.  The probability of you
making it into your 1990 before a major depression is not reflected there.
I see no way for you to make it past your fall season.

You only need a couple more countries to default and your monetary system
will collapse.  You sit on the target for several methods of pulling you
down into collapse.  Well, back to the original story.

We are talking of holding companies in trouble.  The international bankers
have removed responsibility from themselves.  They passed the notes, etc.
on to the holding companies who in turn made the bad loans.  All that money
belonging to the Arabs has been passed into the holding companies.  All
the international bankers have to do is say to the Arabs, 'You are broke.
As of today--all gone!'  When the Arabs demand payment of the 30 year term
notes, the holding companies are insolvent--simple as that, no funds--broke.

Do you see now, that this group 'made' people some years back and now
they can 'break' them with equal speed and efficiency without being
accountable?

I fear, friends, it is not very different from what is being done
unto you dear ones. BUT, that is another story.

 [Continued Next Message]





--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Gregory B Lush)
Subject: The Grey Men Tape (5)
Date: 8 Apr 91 22:33:18 GMT

From: [e-mail] (Gregory B Lush)


Here things began to happen rapidly and with sleight of hand.  There have
followed myriads of liquidations, foreclosures and bankruptcies which were
effected by the FDIC and FSLIC which are under the total control of the
Federal Reserve Board.  Literally dozens of banks all over America quickly
were, and are, being bought up.  But the big question is by whom?  Who has
the money in sufficient amounts to make such purchases?  The great sums come
from the higher oil price money that goes to the Arabs, the
deposited into the international bankers' banks.  The banks being purchased
are then intentionally closed.  Some of those banks are still solvent.
They are also buying up farm land throughout America through the farmers who are
now being put into bankruptcy because of the high American dollar (in relation-
ship to foreign currency).  At least this is the way it was up to a year or so
ago--it is fluctuating somewhat at the present time for other heinous things
are under way which are the next step in the plan.  I shall not go into those
things in this document for I intend to do a document relative to your
economies.  First, let us consider what is happening now and has been, for your
past few years--a lot of things are being done now through the Oriental
communities.  Ah so?

                           WHAT HAPPENS NEXT?

What happens next after this point in insolvency and negotiations, is that
the assets would have to be liquidated.  The Arabs now have to liquidate.
They bought farmland, for instance, all over America.  Likewise they
bought stocks in a lot of corporations as well as a lot of bonds and some
other kinds of real estate.  In fact, they have controlled a large portion
of the New York Stock Exchange.  Keep in mind the Japanese control a large
portion, also.

Let us look at the morning following the notice of bankruptcy.  The Arabs
will dump their stocks onto the New York Stock Exchange and what is going to
happen when billions of dollars worth of their stock comes on the market?
I am talking billions and billions of dollars and, suddenly, there it
all is to be sold!

What happens to farmland that is already depressed?  In 1987 prime farmland
that had been worth $3,000 an acre was less than $700 per acre because
of deflation and the inability to repay farm loans.  Now you have added
drought and all sorts of other bad dreams.  By the way, this deflation was
brought about by your Federal Reserve System.  Well, the Arabs don't want
that farmland, they have all the problems they can handle.  What happens
to the price of farmland?  It is going right to the floor isn't it?
Brothers, when that happens with the value what does it mean?  It means
it has no collateral value any longer.  With no collateral value, how can
a farmer borrow money next year for his crops?  In turn, what happens
to the crops?  Who is going to feed the people?  What is going to happen
in the grocery markets?  The results, of course, equates to hunger and
scarce supply.  Sad, brothers, but it is a well laid plan working to
perfection.

It all boils down to CONTROL and how do you ever recover.  Further, let us
look at you stock situation.  What is going to happen when these
multitudes of stocks are dumped on the stock market?  Chaos.  What
will be the result of catastrophic chaos?  IT HAS BEEN DESIGNED
TO THROW THE AMERICAN STOCK EXCHANGES, PRIVATE CORPORATIONS, PRIVATE
BUSINESS, AMERICAN REAL ESTATE AND QUITE FRANKLY, THE PEOPLE IN GENERAL,
INTO A STATE OF TOTAL CONFUSION.  TO THE RESCUE! Let me finish the
plan for you.  At the time of total confusion and inability to function,
those benevolent bankers are going to come through with a 'save the world
proposal'.  They are going to be prepared to eliminate
cash because of its collapse.  Secondarily, they must then stop drug
trafficking.  Then, they must also push to stop tax cheating.  Now, what
self respecting American citizen can possibly be against such noble efforts?
They (the bankers) have set up and orchestrated all of these programs and now
will pretend to stop them.

What will the average American do when your television says, 'Look at
what those dirty Arabs have done to you?'  What would you do?  You are
going to believe what they tell you, aren't you?  You are going to be right
up there in front saying 'Sure they did it to us.  Those Arabs want to
control the world.'  Pretty soon it will be, 'Those Japanese want to control
the whole world,' and then, 'The Chinese want to control the whole world."
You will join the chant that says, 'Look they bought up all this major part
of America.  Look at all the money we have given them, and see what they have
done.  They have collapsed our stock market, et cetera and so on'.

Ah ha, but here come your benevolent bankers and they are going to say to you,
'You have got to have a new currency and then the next thing we will do
is use that new currency to stop this dope trafficking.  You know, that which
is coming in from Central America and those other countries.  Then, of
course, we are also going to have to have a debit card to stop people from
tax cheating because, after all, Mr. Public, if we don't do this we will
never get ourselves back on our feet.  So, brothers, if you'll just turn
everything over to us benevolent bankers we will take care of everything
and straighten out the whole mess.'  You know what, brethren?  You will
hop on that bandwagon and agree to your imprisonment like babes to candy.
You will not only agree to it; you will demand it.  For you will forget to
hear the big IF.  'YOU WILL GET ALL THIS DONE FOR YOU IF YOU WILL JUST TAKE
A DEBIT CARD FOR YOU INDIVIDUALLY WITH OUR LITTLE OLD NUMBER ON IT!'
YOU WILL HAVE JUST FALLEN FOR THE OLD IDENTIFICATION CARD SCHEME.

HOW CAN THIS HAPPEN TO YOU?  BECAUSE YOU HAVE NEVER BEEN TOLD THE TRUTH,
FRIENDS, AND WILL YOU BELIEVE IT NOW AS I GIVE IT TO YOU?  NO, MOST OF YOU
WILL DISCOUNT ME AS A FIGMENT OF SOME NUT'S (GBL's?) WILD IMAGINATION.
SO BE IT FOR I AM GREATLY SADDENED FOR YOU AS A SPECIES.

                            THE NEW CURRENCY

This has been a scenario about the Middle East.  Where do you think you are
today and what do you think you will be when you have this new currency?
It will only devaluate the old 'dollar' to zero.  It is planned already and
named already; the Phoenix.  A little prior to this, there is a plan to bring
forth an international credit card ID.  Let us refer to it as a
government ID card with your social security number on it which would
be, and get this because the next is important, satellite linked through
the Star Wars system.  Does any of this sound familiar to you?  This
program of Star Wars is at least 60% geared towards this very purpose
and only 40% for the claimed defense systems, etc.

This major space linkup will facilitate the transmission of banking
information throughout the world instantly.  This would be a debit card
with a number which would be required for you to do business, and friends,
if you know anything at all about your Biblical prophecies, God has
already told you it will be, it will take place.  Further, it will be
done in such a clever way that you 'Christians' who say you will NEVER
sign up nor participate will never see it hit you and you will have
joined the program without even realizing it.  How else are you going to
survive?  Let us not be foolish in our claims for you are dealing with the
most clever planners who have out thought you completely up to this date.

Now, I hope you will believe me when I tell you that the 'Star Wars'
program of satellite systems is in place.  Satellites are up there,
friends.  We of other planets are allowed to stop nuclear warheads--we are not
permitted to touch satellites which are not geared to some type of
nuclear detonation.

Well, all those wonder filled bits of technology called eyes in the sky
and spy satellites 'for you security' are really for
the purpose of transfer of the very banking and income information which
I have just been describing.  It can set up immediate transfer of funds from
all over the entire world, from the debit card, that the internationalists
will see to it are established with every living person.  You will be on the
system whether you know it or not.  In fact, you who are old enough to read
these words--and every child--is already entered therein.

All information will be entered into a central computer and from that place
the world will come under instant financial control.  So, dear Americans,
you have just paid you hard earned money to finance that program to
initiate the bankers' international credit card system and number system
that will be implemented whether or not you choose of it.  IT IS DONE,
BROTHERS, IT IS PLACE--DONE!  DON'T TELL ME YOU WILL NOT PARTICIPATE-
-YOU  ARE ALREADY A PARTICIPANT, DEAR LITTLE ONES.

Oh yes, what of your defense system?  Doesn't look too good does it?
Well, we are not going to let those nuclear warheads out here in out
space past one hundred fifty miles anyway.  That is our prerogative
and we stop them or dismantle them.

    [Continued Next Article]




--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Gregory B Lush)
Subject: The Grey Men Tape (6)
Date: 8 Apr 91 22:34:27 GMT

From: [e-mail] (Gregory B Lush)


                              HEAR ME

Do you not see, brothers, that this is the way the prophecies are coming
into your focus?  It is happening all about you but you don't seem to
know what it is you look for.

Please, all I want you to do at present is HEAR ME.  There is naught you
can do about it to any great extent as it stands.

You who will hear me and mine own groups, hear me.  You must utilize all
of the remaining time to its maximum efficiency for we will have to continue
to work under the new systems.  Our projects will never be less than
excellent investments and they must, and will, be funded.  It needs to be done
rapidly, however, before we are caught up in the total collapse of the monetary
system.  We can work through depression if we have fundings--monetary
collapse shuts us down for all practical purposes, until the system can be
put on track and functioning.

It can work and will work, for in these confused, rushed and harassed days
there is great madness to shift money and make money on money and etc.
Countries such as China, Japan--all non hard currency countries are desperate
to convert to dollars.

I will further tell you that your governments know we are here.  They also
know we are not here to interfere.  We are here to walk our people through
a transition and we plan nothing subversive. We do plan good business
ventures and welcome all who wish to participate.  We have no communes,
all word for fair reward.  We plan good business with total integrity
and latest technology.  We are here to help, not overthrow.  We are here
only to walk our brothers through, for it will all come down just as the
prophecies are given.  There will be some very bad times ahead most
surely if plans are not made for those days of tribulation.

Let me speak a bit more regarding 'timing'.  I know that what I
have said is truth.

It was confirmed by top sources in Switerland that by October of last year
there were twelve debtor nations who had agreed to the proposal of debt
forgiveness in exchange for perpetual consignment of natural resources.
There only need to be one or two more that give enough leverage to announce
the Arabs bankrupt.  As of now, all the top leaders in the Arab world know
the story and they are scared to death about it.  They don't know what they
are going to do about it; there is actually nothing they can do about it.
They certainly do not know how to announce it to their populace.  There
doesn't seem to be any way to get the information out to the people.

Further, no one knows how to announce all this to the American people.
It has been attempted by some and fallen on deaf ears.  I hope that by
the time many of you have read this document, there will be recognition
of our presence in your space.  What I tell you is truth.

                         IN SUMMARY

I would like now, to sum up this scenario.

Because the 20 to 1  debt to asset banking ratio also operates in reverse
(that's how it is with leverage), it only takes about five percent
of the the third world nations to declare bankruptcy and when they do,
and they accept the plan of the international bankers, then the bankers can
declare the bank holding companies bankrupt.  Because of the reverse
leverage of the loans, only 5% of the third world countries could
basically declare the world bankrupt and the ownership of all falls to the
international bankers.

When this program is initiated and in place, it will wind up with the
international bankers owning all mortgages and all properties.  What
is that going to do to your country?  What about the world?  What control
will they have when they initiate the debit card?  It will be an automatic
number which will be given and would be required because the country
is devastated.

It would then result that the international bankers, who are made up of
all these secret and complex committees I have previously discussed,
would now own the majority of the United States and most other countries
(for all will fall in short order), would control the Arab world and
therefore, by about a thirty year plan of manipulation, will have
brought the peoples of the world under control.

Two years ago, your Senator George Hansen said you had only about a year
to get this under control, to get the information out and do something
about it.  Well, your year has passed into two and a half.  How much have
you heard about it?  I doubt very much.  Brothers, this is how men make
slaves of their fellow men.

It has, however, been prophesied since the beginning of your world that these
things would come to pass.  This statement is not to give you negative
feelings.  This is to tell you that you are IN the time of evolution of
your planet where these things are now coming to be.

I go through all this that you might recognize the signs which are all
around you.  The time, in your perception of time, is fleeting.  The 'time'
we call sequence of events--is fleeting.  We have much to do and we
are here ad available to assist you one of God and the children of
you planet called Earth Terra.  You are a sister planet to we of the
Pleiades.  Many of our ones walk among you.  There are many duties and jobs
that must now be finished.

The story, the work, will go out for that is God's promise to man.  His
promise is to allow man to hear and to see, followed by proof.  He will
send these things through us of the space brotherhood.

These things shall be documented and sent forth to man so that man can see
what he wishes to do--what choices he wishes to make regarding his divinity.
I am going to leave this portion now, that you ones can ponder these things.

We come in love and we can see farther than you.  We have access to all
records, so we can see and know.  We can give assistance if we are so
petitioned.  And you might ask, 'Why would you ones do that?'  Because
Father God the Totality, the Light which is your Source and My Source
loved you enough to send forth His Celestial Son, before us.  We now serve
that same 'Son' who is our Commander and act in His service.

Further, for you who are our brothers, we will not leave you stranded on
that place.  Ye who do not yet know me, will come to understanding our
presence.  I leave mine seal and my blessings on this portion, which I fear
is quite lengthy.  Please ponder is several times until you have
understanding for it is most important.

Go Dharma, it has been such a terribly long session for you.  Turn the
papers over to the others that you may get some rest.

Salu, Salu, Salu        Hatonn moving to stand-by.

     <The End - Grey Men Tape>





--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (sm)
Subject: Disclaimer
Date: 9 Apr 91 06:48:00 GMT

The preceeding postings concerning the Phoenix Journals do not necessarily
reflect the opinion of the ParaNet Information Service.  It is provided as a
public service in the interest of fairness and research.  Thank you to Mr.
Lush for providing them.

ParaNet Information Service

--
ParaNet(sm) Information Service - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: ParaNet(sm)[e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Subject: Re: A SETI Update
Date: 6 Apr 91 00:19:00 GMT

va>+Silvio Conte (R-MA): 'We don't need to spend $6 million
va>this year
va>+to  find  evidence of these rascally creatures. We only
va>need  75
va>+cents  to  buy  a tabloid at the  local  supermarket.
va>Conclusive
va>+evidence  of  these  crafty critters can  be  found  at
va>checkout
va>+counters  from coast to coast. [Mr. Conte then entered
va>into  the
va>+Congressional   Record  five  articles  on  UFOs   from
va>tabloid
va>+publications.]


How amusing for him!  Of course, Conte became greatly exercised the
following week, when the media called his attempted murder of the NASA SETI
appropriation "The Search For Congressional Intelligence".

Still you can't blame Silvio -- $6 million spent unraveling the secrets of
the universe is $6 million that won't be here to pay for Congressional
junkets...

va>I had heard Conte was unfriendly to the concept, but I
va>didn't know it was
va>this bad.  But didn't he die a couple months ago?

... only from the neck up.

Why are politicians always such self-serving poltroons?

Best,
  Clark

--
Clark Matthews - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Subject: ''The Search For Schroedinger's Cat''
Date: 6 Apr 91 05:11:00 GMT


 > +If you want to read about other dimensions, try The Search
 > for
 > +Schroedinger's Cat.
 >
 > And after you've done that, read the file REALITY.ASC from
 > KeelyNet, on
 > Bohm's holographic model of the universe and Pribram's
 > holographic model of
 > the mind.  Excellent work!  (Maybe Clark or I should post it,
 > although it's
 > not UFO-related.  Comments?)
 >


Jim, you're a mind-reader!  I am planning to follow up on the
posting of the Gravity Coil with a posting of REALITY!

There was only limited response to the gravity coil post, but it was
scholarly & interesting.  Bohm's paper should be at least as
provocative, eh?

Best,
  Clark

--
Clark Matthews - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Subject: Serios Business
Date: 6 Apr 91 05:33:00 GMT


 >
 > evidence for fraud, and many hundreds of photographs as
 > evidence
 > of Serios' 'talents.' One of the key evidential factors was
 > the
 > *distortions* of space and time in many of the photos --
 > 'dream-like' or "imagination-like" distortions and seamless
 > composite images that positively could not have been faked by
 > any
 > mechanical means under the circusmtances. Also, many photos
 > were
 > made with the cameras at quite some distance from Serios, and
 > in the
 > hands of the investigators. Some of the pictures appeared as
 > if
 > taken from 'impossible' angles; from places where the cameras
 > had
 > never been positioned. There's more, too. *Much* more.
 > Including a
 > lot of pictures not previously published.
 >

Hi!  This message exchange is very interesting!  I wonder, is anyone
familiar with the collection of "ghost" or "spirit" photos in the
possession of the Warrens of Monroe Connecticut?  Yes, I'm talking
about the same Warrens who were involved in the Amityville Horror
fiasco, among other high-profile "hauntings", exorcisms, etc.

Some of their photos are really remarkable -- often they're "bad"
drugstore-type pix taken by people who later realize how very
strange the photos are. Many of the same characteristics of the
Serios photos, including impossible angles, bizarre juxtaposed
images, faces, etc.

I should add that the pictures range in age from 90 years or more to
quite recent.  Whatever you thing about the Warrens' other interests
("demonology", possessions, etc.), the photos are definitely worth a
look.  They take a good sampling of them on their lecture tours.

Best,
  Clark

--
Clark Matthews - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (John Hicks)
Subject: Belgian Reports
Date: 7 Apr 91 21:48:00 GMT


 MC>   Any further information you might
 MC> find on this publication may shed some light on this.

  The entire Tretyak interview was in UFONS, clipped from Literary Gazette,
a Russian publication of some sort. If you're in contact with Antonio
Huneeus he may have more info.

                                                jbh

--
John Hicks - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Kurt Lochner)
Subject: physics, orders of magnitude
Date: 7 Apr 91 21:25:00 GMT


 To: violet.berkeley.edu!chalmers (John H. Chalmers Jr.)
 >
 > RE Kurt Lochner's comments of 3/25/91: it may have not
 > been clear in my original upload, but the gravitational
 > magnetic field is theorized to be produced by
 > accelerated masses and is only an analog of the EM
 > magnetic field.

Ok, I've seen some other articles about this but still
have yet to drag out a physics text to qualify my remarks
beyond my opinions about this topic....

 > Forward's General Relativistic anti-gravity reactor is
 > meant as an example of why I consider
 > space-warps and anti-gravity devices to be improbable
 > with human scale technology. Neither he nor I consider
 > them very possible.

I do consider some of this possible, but not to very
dramatic proportions, if any.

 > The toroid must be wound with a hollow tube as it is a
 > stellar mass of nuclear density , not electrons, that
 > has to flow through it.

Why bother with a tube to contain the stellar mass?

 > I appreciate your point about the Planck
 > mass, but I believe I am right that the gravitational
 > coupling constant is 38 or 40 ord mag's less than that
 > of the EM (or Strong Nuclear force) and the
 > permeability of space is very low to the g field,
 > so very large moving masses are necessary.

That scale of magnitude doesn't apply here and is,
I believe, due to a typo in a Popular Science article.
I'll make it a point to examine some physics texts.

 > One more point: Kurt's reply implies that I might
 > think '_gravity is a resultant of space and time._'
 > I didn't respond to this statement when originally
 > made by another member on the net because I
 > don't understand what it means.

Don't worry about it, even Einstein had problem with
that particular concept, heheh.....

 > I follow the orthodox view that gravity is due to the
 > curvature of space-time and that it should be
 > formalizable as a relativistic QM theory involving the
 > exchange of spin-2 gravitons.

I don't.

--
Kurt Lochner - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Kurt Lochner)
Subject: Re: Gravitational magnetism
Date: 7 Apr 91 21:47:00 GMT


 >
 >      I got the impression that the mass goes through
 > the toroid, not the coils.
 >
He's written back that the stellar mass goes through the
coils and that the mass/movement is the cause of this
gravitational magnetism.

 >      What are "Planck energy values"?

Values of energies present at the birth of our universe.

 >  Where did you get the numbers 10^19 to 10^28?

A. Zee, Gravity, an Old Man's Toy.
 >
 >      The 10e40 value for comparative field strength of
 > the EM force over the gravitational force comes from a
 > comparison of the field strengths for specific particles.

Yes, but that's a misapplication of the forces involved with
the scale of distances being used to carry this discussion.

 >  >>         Physicists at Stanford and elsewhere are
 >  >> planning experiments on a satellite in the next decade
 >  >> to test for the existence of the protational field.
 >
 >  KL> I'll have to look this term up, never heard it before.
 >
 >      It's new to me too. Let me know what you find.
 >
I'll be looking into this soon, will report back....

--
Kurt Lochner - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Frank Ward)
Subject: Re: Koa
Date: 9 Apr 91 04:53:28 GMT

Michael, is there any chance of getting a transript of the KOA show??  Might
be interesting....
Frank

--
Frank Ward - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: mtus5.bitnet!REVJIM
Subject:      Ivan Sanderson
Date: 9 Apr 91 17:11:12 GMT

From: [e-mail]

Among being a UFO buff, I am also a sort of Bigfoot, etc. fanatic,
and the name 'Ivan Sanderson' rings a bell from that arena.  Going
by memory, I think he was an investigator in the late 60's in the
Washington area, possibly associated with such Bigfoot related
personell as Rene Dahinden (sp?) and Roger Patterson.
Does this make sense?
James




--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: well.sf.ca.us!ddrasin
Subject: SERIOS BUSINESS
Date: 9 Apr 91 17:12:00 GMT

From: [e-mail] (Dan Drasin)

+ From: Pete.Porro . Subject: Re: SERIOS BUSINESS

+ Arthur C. Clark pretty well says this was a con job, using the tube
+ for holding small parts of photos.

To get the results Serios has gotten by means of 'small parts of
photos' in a tube would be at least as extraordinary a feat as getting
the results psychically.

It is one thing to say that such-and-such a phenomenon *might* be
explain*able* in such-and-such a way (that is, if you ignore certain
critical facts), and quite another to say it has *been explained*. If
Clarke really did dismiss this case on the basis of such naive
speculation he has behaved disgracefully.


Dan Drasin
[e-mail]




--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: cwns1.ins.cwru.edu!aa440
Subject: Question from a UFOlogy Sig User - Help
Date: 9 Apr 91 17:13:47 GMT

From: [e-mail] (Dale Wedge)


Got a few questions here from a user on the Cleveland Free-Net that
I thought I would pass on to you.  I have not followed alot of the
subjects that this person asked me, so I thought that I would ask
the masses on ParaNet.

Anyways, these questions were posted to me on Sat Apr 6, 1991.  I have
edited some of them because of spelling errors.

1. In Area S-4 (The Dark Side of the Moon) the Apollo Astronauts photo-
   graphed a lunar base manned by earthmen as well as Alien beings, can
   this be confirmed by anyone in authority other than the government?

   My answer was that I thought that S-4 was the alledged base out west
   in the desert where the government and aliens were sharing a facility
   based upon an agreement with the U.S. and the alien culture.  I do not
   believe any of this, but this is what I thought had been reported.

2. What is/was Project Redlight and Project Snowbird?

   I know that you guys know this one.

3. Does the 'National Reconnaissance Organization' still exist, and what
   can they tell us about UFO activities?

   I never heard of it, have you?

4. Can you shed any light on 'D.U.M.B.' (Deep Underground Military Bases)?

   I'm sure that we have them for national security.  But the jest of the
   question had to do with if there was any connection between D.U.M.B.
   and UFOs?

5. Has the military/UFO activities in and around Mt. Shasta taken the place
   of 'Big Rock Calif.' as a UFO landing site?

   No comment from me here.  How about you?

6. This is a long one.  How can the assassination of President Kennedy/MJ-
   12/The Council of Foreign Relations/The Joint Alien, U.S., U.S.S.R/The
   Deaths and or disappearance of prominate civilian and military people
   and the manned base on the moon connect?

   Hey, this question has all the makings of a book!!!

Well, those are the questions that I got.  I was looking for someone with
diplomatic means to help answer some of them.  Remember, we are here to
educate, not put people down.

Best, Dale B. Wedge




--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Subject: Re: Koa
Date: 9 Apr 91 18:53:00 GMT


 > Michael, is there any chance of getting a transript of the KOA show??
 > Might be interesting....

I will arrange for one, Frank.  Might take a couple of weeks.

Mike

--
Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



********To have your comments in the next issue, send electronic mail to********
                      'infopara' at the following address:

UUCP  {ncar,isis,boulder}!scicom!infopara
DOMAIN  [e-mail]
ADMIN Address [e-mail]
  {ncar,isis,boulder}!scicom!infopara-request

******************The**End**of**Info-ParaNet**Newsletter************************


                Info-ParaNet Newsletters   Volume I  Number 390

                            Friday, April 12th 1991

Today's Topics:

                     Question From A Ufology Sig User - Help
                                 Re: Bill Cooper
                                     (none)
                              UFOLOGIST PASSED OVER
                                  solar flares
                         National Reconnaissance Office
                                  solar flares
                                 Re: Rick redux
                                  Re: Skeptics
                           Re: Openmindedness and psy
                                 Re: Rick redux
                            Re: Statements of accepta
                               Re: HUMAN VISITORS

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (John Burke)
Subject: Question From A Ufology Sig User - Help
Date: 10 Apr 91 07:23:00 GMT


 * Forwarded from "ParaNet UFO"
 * Originally from John Burke
 * Originally dated 04-10-91  0:05

Dale:
         Here's my 2 cents' worth:

 >
 > 2. What is/was Project Redlight and Project Snowbird?
 >
 >    I know that you guys know this one.

Project Snowbird was supposed to involve the testing of crashed UFOs or UFOs
given to us by the aliens.  Many people believe that the Cash-Landrum incident
occurred as a result of Project Snowbird.  I used to have a copy of Bill
Moore's FOIA file on Project Redlight which he sells for about $6.  I think
that it was supposed to have a similar focus, such as the reverse-engineering
of captured UFOs.

 > 3. Does the 'National Reconnaissance Organization' still
 > exist, and what
 >    can they tell us about UFO activities?
 >
 >    I never heard of it, have you?

The NRO is supposed to be part of the NSA.  Some believe that their duties
involve crash/retrieval operations.  Many suspect that the infamous "Black
Helicopters" are flown by the NRO.  As I recall, it is supposedly headquartered
down in Texas somewhere.

 >
 > 6. This is a long one.  How can the assassination of
 > President Kennedy/MJ-
 >    12/The Council of Foreign Relations/The Joint Alien,
 > U.S., U.S.S.R/The
 >    Deaths and or disappearance of prominate civilian and
 > military people
 >    and the manned base on the moon connect?
 >
 >    Hey, this question has all the makings of a book!!!

In fact, Bill Cooper has written just such a book.  He calls it: _Behold A Pale
Horse_.  I call it:  _Behold A Pail Of Horsesh*t_.

                                          --  John

--
John Burke - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Greenen)
Subject: Re: Bill Cooper
Date: 9 Apr 91 14:20:00 GMT


 * Replying to a message originally to Don Ecker
 TM>  >  > much information in or your brain will pop out"
 TM>  >  > concept.
 TM>  >  > Our mind  supposedly has unlimited storage capacity.
 TM>  >
 TM>  > Yea Tyson, that may be, but still, that does not mean that
 TM>  > you don't question, and research. Do you believe EVERYTHING
 TM>  > you hear?  If so, I got this really GREAT car that I am
 TM>  > selling, and BOY* * * can YOU BUY it CHEAP. You send me a
 TM>  > check, I send you the papers-----OK?
 TM>
 TM>   Well, I never stated that you disbelieve everything you
 TM> hear.. I was just trying to point out the danger in using
 TM> the "mind so open the brains flutter out" concept.. It
 TM> gives an excuse to ignore possible information.  I sound
 TM> too serious sometimes, and I apologize if I seemed too
 TM> vehement in my post.
 TM>
 TM>    My point isn't that you should believe or disbelieve
 TM> anything. My point is that you should consider all sources
 TM> of information.. and if there is not sufficient (or
 TM> reasonable) proof to disbelieve it, then it shouldn't be
 TM> dismissed totally.  However, there are some claims that do
 TM> not have to be researched into, for they seem to be a waste
 TM> of time (like the aliens are "demons" type).  I agree with
 TM> you totally on that.  I also never lead myself to believe
 TM> any
 TM> information if I do not have sufficient proof of it also..
 TM> I just
 TM> consider it, and try to learn more information about it,
 TM> and hopefully gain more proof for or against it.
 TM>
 TM>                                 Tyson
 TM>
 TM> --- GoldED 2.29f-
 TM>  * Origin: ParaNet ALPHA-EPSILON(sm) ABySS - WASHDC
 TM> (1:109/134)
I agree with you 100 % on your statement. If a person was released
from prison after spending 40 years for a ccrim and while walking
down to the local diner to get himself some real food. If a UFO
flew over his head, stopped and pick him up as in the Ed Walters
case, should we throw out his testimony because he had a prison
record? Should we throw out all what Bill Cooper says because he
goes off the deep end sometimes? I don't think so, are courts won't
let you use pass crimes in a case, then why do the ufologist have
double standards. Why must we have to drag a alien space craft in
the middle of Washington D.C. for some to accept that this is the
only proof that they can except. Why always this double standard
that we try to create. I will repeat this to all that are reading
this, I know that they exist and I am not going to play this game
that some like to play. I think its time to try and find out the
WHO, WHAT, WHERE AND HOW. Tyson; with the logic you have, you will
help find these answers that we all are seeking.  73's  ---Jim---
--
Jim Greenen - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Greenen)
Subject: (none)
Date: 9 Apr 91 14:43:00 GMT

What seems strange about the Kecksburg sighting is that nobody has
ask the opinion of the orignal investigator of that case, Clark
McClelland. He lives here in Central Florida and is mention in
Leonard Stringfield book and also in Above Top Secret. Clark has
been a active investigator in UFOs for over forty years and former
NICAP director for the Space Center????    ---Jim---
--
Jim Greenen - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: UFOLOGIST PASSED OVER
Date: 10 Apr 91 06:18:00 GMT

UFOLOGIST DENIED PROMOTION
by Jim Speiser

ParaNet Zeta-Reticuli 04/09/91 - A Tucson man has been passed over for a
promotion within the Sheriff's Department, allegedly because of his
interest in UFOs.

Bob Dean, a 62-year-old technical worker within the Pima County Office
of Emergency Services and an officer of the Mutual UFO Network, is suing
the Department, which oversees the OES, alleging violations of
discrimination laws as well as of his First Amendment rights.

Dean, who served 27 years in the US Army and retired as a Command
Sergeant Major, claims that he was number two in line for a promotion,
out of a list of 70 applicants, for the head job at the emergency
services office. When the number one applicant declined the job, Dean
says, it was incumbent upon the Department to name him, based on his
professional credentials and years of service to Pima County.

But Dean was passed over, and the job went to the next in line. Dean
filed a claim with the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission, which
ruled in his favor, but that ruling was overturned by the County
Manager, who was supported by the Sheriff.

At first, Dean thought age was the issue - he was 61 at the time. But in
a sworn, tape-recorded deposition, the Sheriff apparently raised a
different objection. Dean quoted the Sheriff as saying words to the
effect of, "I've known Bob for years, and know him to be very a
professional and capable guy - hell, he even helped get me elected back
in 1980. But I just couldn't bring myself to offer him that position.
He's into UFOs, you know."

Bob Dean has quietly served in various capacities in the UFO field,
including a stint on the Board of Directors of the now-defunct Aerial
Phenomena Research Organization (APRO). His interest in the subject was
apparently sparked by his experiences while on duty at NATO's SHAPE
headquarters in Paris. Cleared for TOP SECRET-COSMIC security
information, Dean claims he had access to several "sensitive" documents
which he says would shine a different light on the military's interest
in UFOs. He makes vague allusions to one document in particular, which
he refers to as "The Assessment."

"I've been pretty quiet about this for a number of years now," says
Dean, "but I'm not going to be around that much longer, and I'm tired of
all the secrecy." When reminded of the similarity between his story and
that of Ufology's enfant terrible, M. William Cooper, who claims to have
had access to Top Secret UFO documents at the Navy's Pacific Fleet
Headquarters, Dean merely scoffed. "Now there's a gentleman who's lost a
lot of credibility in my book."

However, it was not unusual, Dean says, to have enlisted men and
non-coms "clean up" after generals and other top brass. "There were some
indiscretions, some sensitive documents left lying around."

Dean is soft-spoken, very polite and personable. While his present post
as MUFON State Section Director for Pima County has made him more
visible of late, he has maintained a low profile in Ufology for some
years, yet unlike Cooper, who seemingly came out of nowhere,  his
interest in the subject has been a known factor. He is well thought-of
by others in the field, including MUFON State Director Hal Starr. "As
far as I can tell, Bob's a straight shooter," says Starr.

Dean's battle with his superiors will soon raise his visibility to the
national level. An upcoming segment of TV's "Hard Copy" will feature the
brouhaha, which Dean claims is the first "UFO employment discrimination
case" ever to be litigated. Dean was interviewed by a Hard Copy reporter
for "over seven hours," and there is talk that an entire half-hour
episode will be devoted to the case, which may come to trial as early as
this summer. Dean is asking for back pay, restoral of pension, and a
large sum of money for "mental anguish."



--
Jim Speiser - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: ecn.purdue.edu!lush
Subject: solar flares
Date: 10 Apr 91 17:20:34 GMT

From: [e-mail] (Gregory B Lush)


A while back, Mr. Corbin mistakenly posted some solar
flare alerts to the newsletter.  I asked some questions
about flares, but no reply.  I then went to the source of
the postings in alt.space and got answers to all my questions.

If anyone else was interested, I can send you a list of our
questions/answers and a glossary of terms used in the flare
alerts.

Greg Lush ([e-mail])





--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: ncar!shemtaia.weeg.uiowa.edu!jrblack
Subject: National Reconnaissance Office
Date: 11 Apr 91 01:25:10 GMT

From: James Roger Black <[e-mail]>

Greg Lush asked about the NRO:

+  Does the 'National Reconnaissance Organization' still exist, and what
+  can they tell us about UFO activities?

Actually, it's the 'National Reconnaissance Office', and yes it does
still exist (or at least it did as recently as 1986, and I have heard
nothing to indicate otherwise since then).  William Burrows' book 'Deep
Black' (Random House, 1986) discusses the NRO in some detail.  Here is
how he begins Chapter 9 of that book:

  The National Reconnaissance Office, which officially does not exist,
  is headquartered in a guarded sanctum--4C-956--inside the Pentagon.
  The NRO's cover, according to a small sign on the outermost of its
  several doors, is that of the Office of Space Systems, which, in turn,
  reports to the under secretary of the Air Force for Space Systems.

  The NRO's cover may be suitably ambiguous, but its mandate is explicit.
  It is responsible for the design, development, and procurement of all
  U.S. reconnaissance satellites and for their management once in orbit.

Since the NRO is in charge of spy satellites, and UFOs (if they exist)
can be expected to (1) appear on satellite photos occasionally, and (2)
inspect spy satellites up close and perhaps interfere with them from
time to time, it is not unlikely that the NRO could have interesting
stuff in their files.  It isn't likely they will ever tell us, however,
since--as Burrows says--NRO officially does not even exist.

One other detail of interest in Burrows' book is his reference (p. 221)
to famous UFO debunker Philip J. Klass as 'a longtime observer of
reconnaissance satellite activities' and quotes him as an authority on
the subject.  Hmmm ...




--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Subject: solar flares
Date: 10 Apr 91 22:44:00 GMT


 > From: ecn.purdue.edu![e-mail]
 > Date: 10 Apr 91 17:20:34 GMT
 > Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
 > Newsgroups: info.paranet
 >
 > From: [e-mail] (Gregory B Lush)
 >
 >
 > A while back, Mr. Corbin mistakenly posted some solar
 > flare alerts to the newsletter.  I asked some questions
 > about flares, but no reply.  I then went to the source of
 > the postings in alt.space and got answers to all my questions.
 >
 > If anyone else was interested, I can send you a list of our
 > questions/answers and a glossary of terms used in the flare
 > alerts.

I would love to have it.  Sorry, did I miss replying to something that you
sent?

Mike

--
Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Rick Moen)
Subject: Re: Rick redux
Date: 8 Apr 91 17:24:43 GMT

>  > In order to save echo bandwidth, I've decided to
>  > change my mind and admit publicly that I'm really a closed-minded
>  > zealot who's here to attack people for their beliefs, ignore
>  > overwhelming evidence that might serve to undermine my faith in my
>  > ideology and divert me from my hidden agenda, and basically to
>  > test how dark the depths of my soul really are.
>
> Ah Ha!  I knew it all along....  I bet you < GASP!! > even
> write letters to Phil < GASP > KLASS!! Out with the stake
> Mike, we got one to burn!
>
> GRIN

Wait!  I repent, and have seen the light (a blue one, from the
Pleiades).

Actually, my mind was damaged at an early age when my mother solemnly
advised me to avoid walking through screen doors because I might
_strain_ myself.  I've had a hard time believing people ever since.

Best Regards,
Rick M.

--
Rick Moen - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Rick Moen)
Subject: Re: Skeptics
Date: 8 Apr 91 18:08:56 GMT

Gene --

You make some very good points about avoiding circular reasoning in
considering the ET (and other) UFO hypothesis, which leads some to
refuse to consider any evidence.  Like all such refusals to consider
evidence, this is counter-productive and bull-headed.  I of course
agree, and appreciate your comments.

Best Regards,
Rick M.

--
Rick Moen - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Rick Moen)
Subject: Re: Openmindedness and psy
Date: 8 Apr 91 20:11:47 GMT

gatech!apple.com!well!ddrasin (Dan Drasin) writes:

DD> Rick, I've heard variations on this from skeptics for a long
DD> time. It's usually '...as long as your mind isn't so open
DD> that your brains fall out.' Pray tell, Rick, just what does
DD> this mean?

It means that some people use "openmindedness" as a code word to
mean _unwillingness_ to apply one's critical faculties to claims of
fact, at all.  A couple of examples will suffice, I think:  When Uri
Geller informed Targ and Puthoff that he was receiving his information
from orbiting flying saucers from the planet Hoova, a lot of folks
decided not to take Uri very seriously any more (and began to have
doubts about Targ and Puthoff), without much worry about being
"closed-minded".  When others heard Shirley MacLaine tell friends that
they are only figments of _her_ imagination, they reacted similarly.

In short, it means that -- although the boundary between sense and
nonsense may be hazy and legitimate grounds for many differences
of opinion -- nonetheless it exists.  There are a few people who
_violently disagree with even this_.  To these folks, who
basically consider reality to be only a crutch, I say:  More
power to you.  Hail Eris!  All hail Discordia!

> Just exactly what are the prescribed limits to openmindedness,
> and who gets to do the prescribing for everyone else?

I'll leave that up to you, for now, but I have your number.

> This falls into the same category as the statement 'extraordinary
> claims require extraordinary proof' -- because (apart from the
> double-standard implied here, which science is never supposed to
> tolerate) nobody has ever defined what 'ordinary' (and therefore
> "extra-ordinary') means.

God, I've gone over this so many times.  Old chestnuts refuse to die.

The basic idea is supposed to be that all factual claims are supported
by some evidence (zero or greater), and that some are supported by
huge amounts of evidence accumulated over hundreds of years.  I should
hasten to add that _quality_ counts, too.  Some bodies of evidence are
more convincing than others.  (For some guidelines as to what is good
scientific evidence and what is bulldada, I refer you the FidoNet
SCIENCE echo or any sci.* newsgroup.  That is clearly beyond the scope
of this echo, and a too-long discussion, to boot.)

A claim is extraordinary if its acceptance would require rejecting
massive amounts of well- (if tentatively) accepted, accumulated
knowledge.  This happened, for example, when geologists suddenly
accepted plate tectonics in the early '60s, when the quantity and
quality of evidence _for_ tectonics became convincing -- after 45
years.  It has never happened, for example, with Charles Fort's
hollow-earth theories, since that evidence is, um, unconvincing.

This is -=not=- a double-standard, since it is just a corollary of the
maxim that _all_ claims should be supported by _appropriate_ evidence.
(The preponderance of quantity and quality rules.)

> That statement is also frequently used to discourage honest
> research into certain subjects....

For the record, as I have said here _many, many times_, I'm all in
favour of honest research, regardless of subject.

> In other words, a (real or imagined) lack of proof is often
> used to rationalize avoiding the very investigation that would
> be required to develop such proof in the first place.

For the record, I'm against imagining a lack of proof.
For the record, I'm against rationalising.
For the record, I'm all in favour of investigations.

> If anything, 'extraordinary' claims (assuming one is interested
> enogh to follow them up in the first place) require extraordinarily
> openiminded, careful and resourceful science....

For the record, I'm absolutely keen on open-minded, careful, and
resourceful science.

> ...Period.

Period, as long as one realises that any very surprising result, whose
acceptance would require massive revisions in accepted scientific
knowledge, will need to have strong evidence.  This is the _ordinary_
standard of science, and applies equally to Alfed Wegener, father of
plate tectonics, and to Robert Jahn of the Princeton PK experiments.
No more, no less.

Some people just won't accept that standard (Velikovsky, Reich...).
That's fine, but then what they do isn't science.

If this topic continues, it would better be moved to a more
appropriate echo or newsgroup.

Best Regards,
Rick M.


--
Rick Moen - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Rick Moen)
Subject: Re: Rick redux
Date: 8 Apr 91 20:14:59 GMT

> Well, thank God you finally brought that out into the open!<grin>.
> I've been reading the ongoing battle between all of you people and it
> just ocurred to me that it seems a shame that, Heaven forbid anyone
> should have an actual opinion about something. Everyone seems afraid
> of giving their gut feelings on a subject in fear of "offending" the
> other party, with the exception of you to a degree. I mean, I'll come
> right out and say it, I THINK BILL COOPER IS A COMPLETE FRAUD AND
> APPEARS TO HAVE SERIOUS NEUROTIC PROBLEMS TO BOOT, AND YET I CONSIDER
> MYSELF QUITE OPENMINDED ON THE SUBJECT OF UFOS! ...

John --

Personally, I've met too many totally sincere people to apply the word
"fraud" to an individual without a tremendous amount of thought.  Also,
questioning people's motives is seldom necessary, or even helpful.  You
come across as having an axe to grind, and lose the chance to let the
record speak for itself.  Lastly, as I said when I tut-tutted and tsk-
tsked Don for calling Cooper a "charlatan", such words can land you in
court.

Nonetheless, I thank you for your remarks.  You're right; we shouldn't
be afraid to express opinions.  I've just had a tough time with
oversensitive and aggressive correspondents, and have to worry about
being misunderstood.  For the record, I think some of Coop's statements
are highly suspect, and I understand why many serious UFOlogists are
more than annoyed with him (most recently Budd Hopkins in MUFON's
journal).  I basically just don't care to debate Cooper with people.

Best Regards,
Rick M.

--
Rick Moen - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Rick Moen)
Subject: Re: Statements of accepta
Date: 8 Apr 91 20:21:49 GMT

Jim --

> The good [text files] should be presented so that they may be acted
> on, and the bad ones, so that they may stand as examples of how NOT
> to think.  I suspect that if Rick kept the files up because he damn
> well felt like it, this may be WHY he damn well felt like it.

Thank you.  That's pretty much the real reason (and it's never been
an issue in these parts).  It's just that whenever people start
grandstanding to me about how sysops _should_ run their boards (as
opposed to making suggestions), I simply tell them to go hang.  Sysops
get a continual parade of such folk, and I have little patience for
them.

I have less patience when the grandstanding is just another ploy in a
tiresome smear campaign, and none at all when that campaign has extended
(notwithstanding allegations to the contrary) over a two year period
in the FidoNet SCIENCE, PHYSICS, and UFO conferences -- and now here,
too.

Again, notwithstanding allegations to the contrary, I advocated
sysops' classifying download files as "Sysop's Picks" or other
_only_ as a less drastic alternative to deleting Cooper's files.

Once more, notwithstanding allegations to the contrary, I am not a
"member" of CSICOP.  I serve on its Electronic Communications
Subcommittee, offering it advice and help in that area, and do not
presume to speak for it.  (To find out CSICOP's views, contact CSICOP.)
I _do_ speak for Bay Area Skeptics, however.

My occasional and long-time correspondant John Tender _has_, however,
suggested (in a roundabout way) a useful project:  Writing to Klass,
Oberg, Sheaffer, other members of CSICOP's UFO Subcommittee, and to
other prominent UFOlogists, and ask them _formally_ what they would
accept as convincing evidence of the ET UFO hypothesis.  (Allegations to
the contrary, I never stated that Klass, Oberg, and Sheaffer had
_published_ such statements, only that they had "said" what would
convince them. They _may_ have published this; I don't remember.)
Perhaps someone else in ParaNet could do this -- I'm swamped.

In my opinion, any skeptic who considers himself an authority on UFOlogy
(which I've consistently said I'm _not_, remember) should be able to
provide a clear -- and serious -- answer to that question.  For that
matter, so should any other avowedly serious UFOlogist.

> I *believe* Klass is looking for some kind of statement from a body
> such as the National Academy of Sciences...

The _Betelgeusian_ Academy of Sciences?  <grin>

I think Phil Klass can probably specify a little better than that.
Fortunately, he's not at all difficult to reach.  You can tell him that
Moen is stirring up trouble again.

Best Regards,
Rick M.

--
Rick Moen - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Pete Porro)
Subject: Re: HUMAN VISITORS
Date: 9 Apr 91 16:31:00 GMT

As far as why do "visitors" have similar features. I have a few answers. One
is that what we see is controlled to a large extent by our previous context
and perceeptions. Since it appears that not too many people have had good
close up views, it might be fair in my opinion to say that they are
describing what they see in terms of what reality we know. It's difficult to
describe something to someone when they have no concept of what it is you are
trying to create a visual image of for their mind.

Second point is that certian physical features are logical for advancement
and abilitys. Opposing thumbs for grasping (no comment on how many fingers
though) Two eyes for parralex vision. Two ears for binaural hearing. Method
of ingesting nutrition, (once again may not include a mouth and teeth like
ours). Method of communication, verbal and written. Mobility, a capacity for
intellegence. I think you get the idea I am head towards. The logic in my
viewpoint is that beings with six arms, two heads and 8 eyes are less likely
than something _similar_ in nature to the human form. I'm in no way trying to
say that it is impossible for another intelegent life form to have all of the
above different, it just makes more sense physically to have a like
construction.

Last of all, even if there is a high probability that there is life
elsewhere, why presume they/it is visiting us at all?
--
Pete Porro - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



********To have your comments in the next issue, send electronic mail to********
                      'infopara' at the following address:

UUCP  {ncar,isis,boulder}!scicom!infopara
DOMAIN  [e-mail]
ADMIN Address [e-mail]
  {ncar,isis,boulder}!scicom!infopara-request

******************The**End**of**Info-ParaNet**Newsletter************************


                Info-ParaNet Newsletters   Volume I  Number 391

                            Monday, April 15th 1991

Today's Topics:

                                 Ivan Sanderson
                     Question from a UFOlogy Sig User - Help
                                Re: A Seti Update
                               Message Statistics
                                   Duplicates
                               UFO Mag. Vol.6 No.3
                                Offer to ParaNet
                               Re: HUMAN VISITORS
                    SOLAR FLARES/SOVIET FIRST CONTACT PROBES
                           Resonant Coil Implications?
                                 Re: Bill Cooper
                         Re: Resonant Coil Implications?
                                 New Affiliates
                        Re: physics, orders of magnitude

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Subject: Ivan Sanderson
Date: 12 Apr 91 08:25:00 GMT


 > Going
 > by memory, I think he was an investigator in the late 60's in
 > the
 > Washington area, possibly associated with such Bigfoot
 > relatedpersonell as Rene Dahinden (sp?) and Roger Patterson.
 > Does this make sense?
 > James
 >

Hi James.  Actually he was based in Little Silver, New Jersey.  He ran SITU
(Society for the Investigation of the Unexplained) and published a magazine
called Pursuit.  I have several copies of Pursuit from my subscription, placed
not long before Sanderson's death -- they're among my most treasured
possessions.

Dr. Sanderson did investigate many aspects of Forteana, and was one of the
first people to suggest that "vortices" of some kind could be responsible for
UFO navigation and disappearances in and around the Bermuda Triangle, not to
mention Bigfeet and other anomalous animals.  He's also regarded as the father
of the study of "Fafrotskies"  (anomalous things that FAll FROm The SKIES),
like fish, frogs, coins, or 100-year-old newspapers.

It's worth remembering that one of the most sensational disappearances took
place near Sanderson's home in N.J.:  A farmer walked across a field, away from
his family & neighbors, and disappeared before their eyes.

Best,
  Clark

--
Clark Matthews - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Subject: Question from a UFOlogy Sig User - Help
Date: 12 Apr 91 08:28:00 GMT

To: [e-mail] (Dale Wedge)

 > 3. Does the 'National Reconnaissance Organization' still
 > exist, and what
 >    can they tell us about UFO activities?
 >
 >    I never heard of it, have you?
 >

The National Reconaissance Office (NRO) is probably the most secret US
intelligence agency that receives appropriations from Congress. Supposedly, the
mission of the NRO is to plan, execute, and maintain satellite intelligence
gathering activities and to a more "limited" extent, to assemble and collate
satellite intelligence (SATINT).

The last I heard every aspect of this agency -- including its budget, its name,
and the identity of all its personnel -- was top secret.  It does not appear on
any published or secure Congressional materials, including public and secret
budget appropriations.

You asked "what the NRO can tell us about UFO activities."  I have no idea what
it could tell us.  It won't ever tell us anything, of course.  Quite likely, it
will become interested in us for asking.

Feel better now?


 > 6. This is a long one.  How can the assassination of President
 > Kennedy/MJ-
 >    12/The Council of Foreign Relations/The Joint Alien, U.S.,
 > U.S.S.R/The
 >    Deaths and or disappearance of prominate civilian and
 > military people
 >    and the manned base on the moon connect?
 >

Simple.  The moon base is the first of a series of Holiday Spas/Global Warming
shelters created to house the members of the Trilateral Commission in the lap
of luxury during the Third World War.  The plans for the place are all laid out
in the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.  The first development contracts were
awarded almost 80 years ago, in 1913, to Count Zaharoff and another even
shadier arms merchant.  George Bernard Shaw learned the secret, but was
murdered a scant 22 years after writing Major Barbara in an attempt to expose
the plot.

The moonbase is financed by 15% of all money-center bank earnings, supplemented
by satellite enterprises like international drug sales, romance novel
publishing, zero-money-down real estate tape learning kits, AMWAY
distributorships, and Mount Shasta condo timeshares.

A cadre of Freemasons built and maintain the moonbase.  They were trained in
zero-g underground facilities in Nevada, where they learned the latest space
construction and nouvelle cuisine cooking techniques.  The Mormons provide the
entertainment (the Osmonds). John & Robert Kennedy discovered the plot and
planned to turn the place into a celestial swing club.  But the Mafia and CIA
liquidated them and Marilyn Monroe, too, leaving only Peter Lawford and Jimmy
Hoffa to warn off inquisitive strangers.

I learned all this whilst serving as a crypto-clerk aboard HMS Indefensible,
off the Galopagos Islands, in 1977.   I was killed because of what I knew, but
was teleported back to this reality thanks to a top-secret US Navy experiment-
gone-haywire at a clandestine facility in New Jersey.  I awoke in this body,
with Don King leaning over me, in the alley next to the so-called Garden State
Alternator Rebuilding Company in Hackensack.  Before the CIA killed me, my name
was Otis T. Carr.

The only way to protect my life is to go public now.  I make no claims -- I
only say these things to encourage you to check them out for yourself.  But if
you send me $25, I'll say a lot more of these things and send you a tape.

Is everything becoming clearer?

Cheers!

  Otis (Clark)

--
Clark Matthews - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Don Ecker)
Subject: Re: A Seti Update
Date: 9 Apr 91 16:47:00 GMT

Clark Matthews said:

 >
 > Why are politicians always such self-serving
 > poltroons?
 >

It is called convincing the "rubes" back home to re-elect
the "self serving poltroon".

Don

--
Don Ecker - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (sm)
Subject: Message Statistics
Date: 11 Apr 91 19:27:00 GMT


DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
Overview of message topics                          "ParaNet UFO Echo"
first: Wed, Mar 1st 1989, 22:31         last: Fri, Apr 12nd 1991, 1:28
DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
(none) ....................................................  21   5.6%
Bill Cooper ...............................................  17   4.5%
Kecksburg .................................................  12   3.2%
Serios Business ...........................................  12   3.2%
Rick Redux ................................................  10   2.7%
Fcc Modem Charge ..........................................   9   2.4%
Ss433 .....................................................   9   2.4%
Gravitational Magnetism ...................................   8   2.1%
Question From A Ufology Sig User - Help ...................   7   1.9%
Statements Of Acceptable Proof ............................   7   1.9%
They're Here!!!! ..........................................   7   1.9%
A Seti Update .............................................   6   1.6%
Coverup? ..................................................   6   1.6%
Haaton Stuff, Etc .........................................   6   1.6%
More Missing ..............................................   6   1.6%
Philadelphia Meteor 4/5/91 ................................   6   1.6%
Resonant Coil Implications? ...............................   6   1.6%
Goof ......................................................   5   1.3%
Hatonn And The Pleiades ...................................   5   1.3%
Ivan Sanderson ............................................   5   1.3%
KOA .......................................................   5   1.3%
Tesla, Keely, Et. Al ......................................   5   1.3%
''the Search For Schroedinger's Cat .......................   4   1.1%
File Disclaimers ..........................................   4   1.1%
Human Visitors ............................................   4   1.1%
Paranet Newsletter 372 ....................................   4   1.1%
Red Light Special .........................................   4   1.1%
Skeptics ..................................................   4   1.1%
Thanks, Jerry! ............................................   4   1.1%
'either-or' Thinking ......................................   3   0.8%
Arui ......................................................   3   0.8%
Belgian Reports ...........................................   3   0.8%
Fiery Objects Fall On Northern Texas ......................   3   0.8%
Halley's Comet Article ....................................   3   0.8%
Hello & Have You Heard??? .................................   3   0.8%
Indian Has Ufo's??? .......................................   3   0.8%
Lazar End .................................................   3   0.8%
Mail Problems .............................................   3   0.8%
Nasa Plans Nuclear Propulsion Research ....................   3   0.8%
New Echo ..................................................   3   0.8%
New Paranet Affiliate .....................................   3   0.8%
Old Writers ...............................................   3   0.8%
Openmindedness And Psychic Phenomena ......................   3   0.8%
Phenomenon Framed Again! ..................................   3   0.8%
Sheriff's Deputy Denied Promotion .........................   3   0.8%
Solar Flares ..............................................   3   0.8%
Test ......................................................   3   0.8%
That 'fireball' -- Potentially High Strangeness! ..........   3   0.8%
Area 51 ...................................................   2   0.5%
Batman? ...................................................   2   0.5%
Carp.ufo Revisited ........................................   2   0.5%
Commander X ...............................................   2   0.5%
Continuum Continues .......................................   2   0.5%
Fireball Clippings ........................................   2   0.5%
Forward/transporters ......................................   2   0.5%
Fritterheads(tm) ..........................................   2   0.5%
Gbl We Love You ...........................................   2   0.5%
Hoagland's Mars ...........................................   2   0.5%
Incinerated Village .......................................   2   0.5%
Interview .................................................   2   0.5%
Magnetic Anomalies ........................................   2   0.5%
Malcolm Puddy .............................................   2   0.5%
Mars Missions Part 2 ......................................   2   0.5%
New Affiliate .............................................   2   0.5%
Philisophical Concerns ....................................   2   0.5%
Physics, Orders Of Magnitude ..............................   2   0.5%
Relativity Woes ...........................................   2   0.5%
Replies ...................................................   2   0.5%
Resonant Gravity Coils ....................................   2   0.5%
Solar Flare Alert .........................................   2   0.5%
Subscription Termination ..................................   2   0.5%
The Grey Men Tape (1) .....................................   2   0.5%
The Grey Men Tape (2) .....................................   2   0.5%
The Grey Men Tape (3) .....................................   2   0.5%
The Grey Men Tape (4) .....................................   2   0.5%
The Grey Men Tape (5) .....................................   2   0.5%
The Grey Men Tape (6) .....................................   2   0.5%
Ufo Sighting In Nh? .......................................   2   0.5%
DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
messages total ............................................ 374
DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD

The 91 most active users of this message area
DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
Michael Corbin ............................................  71  19.0%
Clark Matthews ............................................  62  16.6%
John Hicks ................................................  31   8.3%
Rick Moen .................................................  30   8.0%
Jim Speiser ...............................................  28   7.5%
Vanth!amix.Commodore.Com!jms@scicom .......................  28   7.5%
Jim Greenen ...............................................  21   5.6%
Don Ecker .................................................  17   4.5%
John Tender ...............................................  17   4.5%
Well.Sf.Ca.Us![e-mail] .......................  13   3.5%
Ecn.Purdue.Edu![e-mail] .......................  12   3.2%
Gregory B Lush ............................................  12   3.2%
Pete Porro ................................................  11   2.9%
Steve Rose ................................................  11   2.9%
Vm1.Yorku.Ca![e-mail] .......................  11   2.9%
Elizabeth Anderson ........................................   9   2.4%
Kurt Lochner ..............................................   9   2.4%
Paranet(sm) Information Service ...........................   8   2.1%
Well.Sf.Ca.Us!ddrasin .....................................   7   1.9%
Astro.Dnet.Ge.Com![e-mail] .......................   6   1.6%
John Burke ................................................   6   1.6%
Vanth!amix.Commodore.Com!jms ..............................   6   1.6%
Cwns1.Ins.Cwru.Edu![e-mail] .......................   5   1.3%
Jim Delton ................................................   5   1.3%
Matt Drury ................................................   5   1.3%
Tyson Mitchiner ...........................................   5   1.3%
Unhh.Unh.Edu![e-mail] .......................   5   1.3%
Gene Gross ................................................   4   1.1%
Jim Graham ................................................   4   1.1%
Jim Shaffer ...............................................   4   1.1%
John Cockrell .............................................   4   1.1%
[e-mail] .........................................   4   1.1%
Mtus5.Bitnet![e-mail] .......................   4   1.1%
Neptune.Convex.Com!swarren@scicom.A .......................   4   1.1%
Paul Faeder ...............................................   4   1.1%
Psuvm.Psu.Edu!ccb104 ......................................   4   1.1%
Psuvm.Psu.Edu![e-mail] .......................   4   1.1%
Shemtaia.Weeg.Uiowa.Edu!jrblack@sci .......................   4   1.1%
Vanth!jms .................................................   4   1.1%
Violet.Berkeley.Edu!chalmers@scicom .......................   4   1.1%
Afglsc.Span.Nasa.Gov![e-mail] .......................   3   0.8%
Jerry Driscoll ............................................   3   0.8%
Mike Keithly ..............................................   3   0.8%
Peggy Noonan ..............................................   3   0.8%
Shing .....................................................   3   0.8%
'ed L'esperance - Techpubs Hnl - (8 .......................   2   0.5%
Boulder!violet.Berkeley.Edu!chalmer .......................   2   0.5%
Cwns1.Ins.Cwru.Edu!aa440 ..................................   2   0.5%
Cwns1.Ins.Cwru.Edu![e-mail] .......................   2   0.5%
Don Sudduth ...............................................   2   0.5%
Eniac.Seas.Upenn.Edu!snelson@scicom .......................   2   0.5%
Frank Ward ................................................   2   0.5%
Gatech!apple.Com!well!ddrasin .............................   2   0.5%
Houston Mayer .............................................   2   0.5%
John Sulik ................................................   2   0.5%
Neptune.Convex.Com!swarren ................................   2   0.5%
Steve Paquin ..............................................   2   0.5%
Stl-06sima.Army.Mil!wmartin@scicom. .......................   2   0.5%
Vm1.Yorku.Ca!yscs1296 .....................................   2   0.5%
Ac.Dal.Ca![e-mail].C .......................   1   0.3%
Anubis.Network.Com!logajan@scicom.A .......................   1   0.3%
Boulder!conncoll.Bitnet!gateh@scico .......................   1   0.3%
Boulder!uunet.Uu.Net!verifone!verif .......................   1   0.3%
Charles Mcelhinney ........................................   1   0.3%
Clark Mathews .............................................   1   0.3%
Cwns1.Ins.Cwru.Edu!ak842 ..................................   1   0.3%
Dave Kutilek ..............................................   1   0.3%
Don Allen .................................................   1   0.3%
Doug Rogers ...............................................   1   0.3%
Ecn.Purdue.Edu!lush .......................................   1   0.3%
Ecn.Purdue.Edu![e-mail] ............................   1   0.3%
Eniac.Seas.Upenn.Edu!snelson ..............................   1   0.3%
Eniac.Seas.Upenn.Edu!snelson@s ............................   1   0.3%
Gatech!apple.Com!well! ....................................   1   0.3%
Glenn Reynolds ............................................   1   0.3%
Hpvclmd.Vcd.Hp.Com!miked ..................................   1   0.3%
Mark Plutowski ............................................   1   0.3%
Mike Corbin ...............................................   1   0.3%
Mtus5.Bitnet!revjim .......................................   1   0.3%
Ncar!shemtaia.Weeg.Uiowa.Edu!jrblac .......................   1   0.3%
Paranet(sm) Information Ser ...............................   1   0.3%
Sheldon Wernikoff .........................................   1   0.3%
Tim Rigg ..................................................   1   0.3%
Tosspot!wang.Com![e-mail] .......................   1   0.3%
Unhh.Unh.Edu!k_Macarthur@ .................................   1   0.3%
Unhh.Unh.Edu!k_Macarthur@scico ............................   1   0.3%
Vanth!amix.Commodore.Com!jms@s ............................   1   0.3%
Violet.Berkeley.Edu!chalmers ..............................   1   0.3%
Vm1.Yorku.Ca!yscs1296@scicom.A ............................   1   0.3%
Well.Sf.Ca.Us!ddrasin@sci .................................   1   0.3%
Well.Sf.Ca.Us!ddrasin@scicom.A ............................   1   0.3%
DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD

            average message posting frequency per day
DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
 0:00- 1:59 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~                           9.4%
 2:00- 3:59 ~~~~~~~~~                                             3.2%
 4:00- 5:59 ~~~                                                   1.1%
 6:00- 7:59 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~                                       5.3%
 8:00- 9:59 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~                                      5.6%
10:00-11:59 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~                                7.8%
12:00-13:59 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~  17.4%
14:00-15:59 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~                   11.8%
16:00-17:59 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~                               8.0%
18:00-19:59 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~                                      5.6%
20:00-21:59 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~                     11.0%
22:00-23:59 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~             13.9%
DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD

            average message posting frequency per week
DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
Monday      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~  18.2%
Tuesday     ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~                   12.3%
Wednesday   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~        16.0%
Thursday    ~~~~~~~~~~~~--
ParaNet(sm) Information Service - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: ParaNet(sm)[e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Subject: Duplicates
Date: 11 Apr 91 22:01:00 GMT

We are sorry for the rash of duplicate messages floating around the network.
The problem is being studied and will be rectified very soon.

Thanks,

Michael Corbin
Director

--
Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Subject: UFO Mag. Vol.6 No.3
Date: 11 Apr 91 22:04:00 GMT


 * Forwarded from "Ask UFO Magazine"
 * Originally from Don Ecker
 * Originally dated 04-10-91 23:54

The new issue of UFO just went to press. The third issue of 1991 looks at the
theme of alternative energy, what may power UFO type craft, an excellent and
thought provoking look at the possiblity of "matter transporting", the new
refocused SDI, and an update on the Integratron. These are just a few examples
of what this issue covers. Oh, did I mention that Mike Corbin speaks on his
thoughts concerning an article by Jeff Mitchell in the last issue. (Vol.6
No.2)in regard to Mitchell's claim of offical saboteurs damaging UFOlogy. All
in all another great issue.

Don

--
Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Subject: Offer to ParaNet
Date: 11 Apr 91 22:05:00 GMT


 * Forwarded from "Ask UFO Magazine"
 * Originally from Don Ecker
 * Originally dated 04-11-91 00:03

To all ParaNet users and members. With the rising cost of postage, printing and
so forth, UFO Magazine found it necessary to raise the cost of single issues of
UFO to $3.95, and as of July 1, 1991, the cost of one years subscription has
risen to $21.00 U.S. and foreign subscriptions at $28.00 U.S. UFO Magazine is
offering a special deal to ParaNet users and members. Until July 1st, if you
decide to subscribe to UFO Magazine, and MENTION that you saw this offer on
ParaNet, you can get a years subscription for $17.50 in the U.S., and if you
are outside the U.S. the rate is $26.00. This is not limited for one year, you
may take out as many years subs as you care to. HOWEVER, this will only run to
July 1. If you need additional information, leave mail here, or Netmail me.

Don Ecker

--
Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Pete Porro)
Subject: Re: HUMAN VISITORS
Date: 9 Apr 91 16:31:00 GMT

As far as why do "visitors" have similar features. I have a few answers. One
is that what we see is controlled to a large extent by our previous context
and perceeptions. Since it appears that not too many people have had good
close up views, it might be fair in my opinion to say that they are
describing what they see in terms of what reality we know. It's difficult to
describe something to someone when they have no concept of what it is you are
trying to create a visual image of for their mind.

Second point is that certian physical features are logical for advancement
and abilitys. Opposing thumbs for grasping (no comment on how many fingers
though) Two eyes for parralex vision. Two ears for binaural hearing. Method
of ingesting nutrition, (once again may not include a mouth and teeth like
ours). Method of communication, verbal and written. Mobility, a capacity for
intellegence. I think you get the idea I am head towards. The logic in my
viewpoint is that beings with six arms, two heads and 8 eyes are less likely
than something _similar_ in nature to the human form. I'm in no way trying to
say that it is impossible for another intelegent life form to have all of the
above different, it just makes more sense physically to have a like
construction.

Last of all, even if there is a high probability that there is life
elsewhere, why presume they/it is visiting us at all?
--
Pete Porro - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Ray Mutchler)
Subject: SOLAR FLARES/SOVIET FIRST CONTACT PROBES
Date: 12 Apr 91 04:10:00 GMT

I just wanted everyone to know that solar flares are REALLY Secret
Soviet First Contact Probes being sent into the sun to meet Satan.
                                          Thank you for your attention.
--
Ray Mutchler - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Steve Rose)
Subject: Resonant Coil Implications?
Date: 11 Apr 91 05:20:00 GMT

In a message to Clark Matthews <07 Apr 91 11:18> Jim Graham wrote:

 JG> He drew diagrams and so on, but when he
 JG> got to the center of the toroid and
 JG> how the fields (remember, there must be
 JG> at least two in this thing) would
 JG> interact, he was lost.

Remember the old 'Outer Limits' episode, where the millionaire financed the
takeover of a local power plant...so some researchers could built their test
chamber to explore alternate dimensions?  They theorized that the doorway would
open if they generated enough power and suddenly *reversed* the magnetic and
electrical properties of the atoms of objects in the chamber, by reversing the
high-current polarity.  I know this is an old fantasy script, but does anyone
see any possibility to this...or is it the usual SF's hokey play on little
understood physics?


--
Steve Rose - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Tyson Mitchiner)
Subject: Re: Bill Cooper
Date: 11 Apr 91 03:30:00 GMT


 > I agree with you 100 % on your statement. If a person was
 > released from prison after spending 40 years for a ccrim and
 > while walking down to the local diner to get himself some
 > real food. If a UFO flew over his head, stopped and pick him
 > up as in the Ed Walters case, should we throw out his
 > testimony because he had a prison record? Should we throw out
 > all what Bill Cooper says because he goes off the deep end
 > sometimes? I don't think so, are courts won't let you use
 > pass crimes in a case, then why do the ufologist have double
 > standards. Why must we have to drag a alien space craft in
 > the middle of Washington D.C. for some to accept that this is
 > the only proof that they can except. Why always this double
 > standard that we try to create. I will repeat this to all
 > that are reading this, I know that they exist and I am not
 > going to play this game that some like to play. I think its
 > time to try and find out the WHO, WHAT, WHERE AND HOW. Tyson;
 > with the logic you have, you will help find these answers
 > that we all are seeking.  73's  ---Jim---

  Yes.. I try to avoid wasting time arguing right now if they exist
or not.  I do not have sufficient proof to decide that, so for now,
I will consider all sorts of information that I can recieve, with
the hope I will be able to finally have enough pieces to fit the
puzzle of this phenomenon.
  Considering all sorts of information is crucial too.  At first,
they may seem ludricious, but I will not ignore them, for somewhere
down the line, I may find something that links with that
information.  The more I learn, the more I know where to look, and
the more closer I am to finding what actually is the truth.

                                Tyson
--
Tyson Mitchiner - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Kurt Lochner)
Subject: Re: Resonant Coil Implications?
Date: 10 Apr 91 21:59:00 GMT

Oh, you read it too....
 >
 > I too wish _someone_ would build this thing.  Of
 > course, it can't really be
 > studied unless more than one is built.
 >
I've given it some consideration too.  I've got most
of the xformers, sealed Westinghouse mfg'd, and would
think it'd be easy to build the rest.
 >
 > I'll probably regret this, but I would like to point
 > out that I work as an
 > electronics engineer at a medium-energy nuclear
 > research facility.
 >
My condolensces, I'm just an out of work physicist.
 >
 > The only part of this project that I can see might
 > present a problem is
 > fabrication of the toroid shell itself.  Everything
 > else is cake.
 >
Yeah, that's what's bugging me, suggestions?
 >
 > BTW: I showed the original gravity paper to an
 > "expert" and he tried in every
 > way he knew how to predict what the EM fields would do
 > in this device.
 > Personally, I don't expect much out of this thing
 > except for some heat and
 > perhaps some rather nasty EMP's, but I think it should
 > be built (and by multiple participants).
 >
Hmmm, I'm still considering that the power supplies
present the most threat.  All else appears to be
quite normal.  Suspending electrostatic fields by
way of electromagnets is a known element.

--
Kurt Lochner - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (sm)
Subject: New Affiliates
Date: 12 Apr 91 18:35:00 GMT

This is to welcome three new affiliates to the ParaNet family.

John Hrusovszky
ParaNet KAPPA(sm)
Auburndale, WI
715-652-2758 9600 HST

John Feilke
ParaNet LAMBDA(sm)
Lincolnton, NC
704-732-1852 9600 HST

Pat Pushor
ParaNet MU(sm)
Calgary, Alberta CANADA
403-289-1209 2400

On behalf of ParaNet, WELCOME!  Please take a moment and introduce yourselves
to the group.

Michael Corbin
Director

--
ParaNet(sm) Information Service - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: ParaNet(sm)[e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Subject: Re: physics, orders of magnitude
Date: 11 Apr 91 01:55:00 GMT

KL> > One more point: Kurt's reply implies that I might
KL> > think '_gravity is a resultant of space and time._'

Not space and time.  Mass and time.  I posted that.

KL>Don't worry about it, even Einstein had problem with
KL>that particular concept, heheh.....
KL>
KL> > I follow the orthodox view that gravity is due to the
KL> > curvature of space-time and that it should be
KL> > formalizable as a relativistic QM theory involving the
KL> > exchange of spin-2 gravitons.
KL>
KL>I don't.

Me neither, Kurt.  Einstein`s entire construct of a universe bound by
gravitons is under greater & greater strain, :-).

By now we should have at least SOME evidence of gravitons.  But we don't.

As Sherlock Holmes said:

"Then there's the curious fact of the barking dog..."

(Watson) "But Holmes, there WAS no barking dog."

"Yes.  And that is the curious thing..."

Graviton = arf, arf, arf...

Woof!,
  Clark

--
Clark Matthews - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



********To have your comments in the next issue, send electronic mail to********
                      'infopara' at the following address:

UUCP  {ncar,isis,boulder}!scicom!infopara
DOMAIN  [e-mail]
ADMIN Address [e-mail]
  {ncar,isis,boulder}!scicom!infopara-request

******************The**End**of**Info-ParaNet**Newsletter************************


                Info-ParaNet Newsletters   Volume I  Number 392

                            Friday, April 19th 1991

Today's Topics:

                                WHAT IS REALITY?
                               Re: SERIOS BUSINESS
                              The Grey Men Tape (6)
                            Re: Statements of accepta
                                Re: Mail Problems
                               Re: New Affiliates
                                 Re: Bill Cooper
                                WHAT IS REALITY?
                                    nice chat
                                    Redlight!
                               Belgium Information
                                       Sitchin
            OBE
                                     Again?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Pete Porro)
Subject: WHAT IS REALITY?
Date: 12 Apr 91 06:56:00 GMT

I saw the long message with quotes of quotes, and the end had someting I
must accept. There is something that people see. What it is does not depend
upon the source much of the time. Presidents and paupers have observed UFO's.
The what and why and how are missing. The when and who we get from time to
time. Last of all is by what athority. I don't think it is always necessary
to conclude that a persons position inlife makes them more or less able to
judge what they perceive. So we run in circles, especially for the one who is
interested in this unexplained observation. Some of the time we are fed steak
some of the time leftover dogfood. It's always hard to seperate the two, but
none the less, something is going on and being seen!

I observe, question, and accumulate information. I conclude based upon the
total knowledge collected. I have no reasonable answer as to what UFO's
really are, where they come from, how they exist, or WHY?

So as most who read this might admit, the quest is for a solution to a
question which appears on a fairly frequent interval. What is really going
on? You and I may have divergent views, but our goals are the same.

There is hope...
--
Pete Porro - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Pete Porro)
Subject: Re: SERIOS BUSINESS
Date: 12 Apr 91 07:09:00 GMT

I will have to watch what AC says more carefully when I watch again. I don't
think he says "This is how it was done..." but he does say that there is a
question as to the viability of the events. We both know that when something
mystic happens, and someone can explain it in a dozen ways, that doesn't
prove that one of those 12 ways are the answer. It reasonable to believe
reproducable evidence, it's reasonable to disbelieve freak occurances (even
if they are factual), it is also logical to accept a reasonable explination
when it cats more doubt than the original event or events. It's unreasonable
to stick to something that has been proven a fraud over and over again, just
because of defensive thoughts.

It appears that strange claims are likely to be taken as fact even in the
face of reality. It also happens that factual unusual events are more often
ignored just because they are unusual.

If it seems I'm dancing on the rails as the train approaches, it is because
each event is independent. I hope to keep thinking that way also. Each case
or event is judged on individual merits.

--
Pete Porro - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (John Hicks)
Subject: The Grey Men Tape (6)
Date: 12 Apr 91 07:44:00 GMT


  Did you personally type the messages from the original publication
and check for accuracy?

                                           jbh

--
John Hicks - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (John Tender)
Subject: Re: Statements of accepta
Date: 9 Apr 91 23:38:00 GMT

>>      I am looking for statements they have committed to print and public
 >> distribution;

 JS> Sorry; can't really help you there. I do believe that the
 JS> statements you seek exist in many places, most notably the
 JS> Skeptical Inquirer, but I couldn't cite you specific references.

     I was of the same 'impression' re the Skeptical Inquirer; what I
can't understand is, when I ask people who I feel should be familiar
with this material to give references, in order to substitute actual
statements in place of general impressions, I get nowhere. That says
something, either about the material or the people.

 >>      Such statements would be quite valuable. It would at least show how
 >> competent these guys are as scientists (assuming they would actually
 >> write their own stuff) as opposed to propagandists.

 JS> It is my impression that these guys are competent "scientific
 JS> thinkers." (Define "scientist.") I am not by any stretch of the

     I would rather define what is "scientific" rather than trust a
"scientist" to be always "scientific".

     So, now my stab at a definition of "scientific": 1) 'Objective' and
data, uncoupled to any specific theory or hypothesis, 3) 'Explicit'
enumeration of all assumptions, 4) 'Explicit' and 'quantitative'
formulation of theories, either algorithmically or heuristically.

 JS> imagination a "scientist", but I believe I've got a grasp on
 JS> how the thinking process goes. While I disagree with their
 JS> parameters for evidence, I recognize that there is enough room
 JS> for gentlemanly debate on the subject without stooping to the
 JS> degree of vilification you seem to revel in. The bottom line

     If the issue is so unclear, perhaps the "gentlemanly debate" hasn't
been as productive as you think. Perhaps we should stoop to criticise
improper thinking, even when our friends do it.

     On the other hand, I 'was' engaged in sarcastic parody at some
points. For that, I'll apologize.

 JS> is, I *do* believe that "these guys" will accept *SOMETHING*
 JS> solid as evidence, and though they do seem to present a moving

     As long as they have reasons for adopting the standards of
evidence, and reasons for changing them, it's OK by me.

     Of course, there is a tendency to put the matter in a
"belief/non-belief" framework; that's more a religious context than a
scientific one. Evidence acquired will either make a specific hypothesis
or theory more probable or less probable. Granted, trying to develop a
consistent and explicit process for evaluating exactly how much even
"accepted" evidence bolsters any particular theory is not easy. However,
materialist that I am, I assume that if the human mind is capable of
doing it then we can, with sufficient technological resources, model the
process. And it's time to start now.

 JS> target, I believe that, if UFOs are a genuine, physical
 JS> phenomenon, it is within our power to gather the requisite
 JS> amount of evidence to convince them. Of course, with some of

     "Within our power" 'if' they have explicit and reasoned standards
of evidence.

 JS> them, it becomes almost academic, since a sufficiently large
 JS> body of evidence has indeed already been gathered.

     By "them" I assume you mean scientists in general. Or Oberg,
Scheaffer, and Klass? or some other group in CSICOP?

 >>      When Rick, a member of the Bay Area Skeptics and CSICOP, evaded
 >> this issue so persistently it merely reinforced a pattern I've seen in
 >> skeptics before; using science when it is convenient, and ignoring it
 >> otherwise.

 JS> <sigh> I have seen that pattern in skeptics myself. I just
 JS> don't see it in Rick, and I don't think you should be painting
 JS> with such a broad brush.

     Everyone has blind spots; I don't claim absolute correctness. I
pointed out what I considered to be serious, and specific, lapses.
Others can evaluate them as they please.

 ... from the purlieus of Pittsburgh
--
John Tender - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Linda Bird)
Subject: Re: Mail Problems
Date: 14 Apr 91 06:13:00 GMT

Clark
    Where is your file/posting on oddities on the moon?  I really want
to read that!  Thanks,  Linda Bird
--
Linda Bird - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (John Feilke)
Subject: Re: New Affiliates
Date: 14 Apr 91 00:10:00 GMT

In a message to All <04-12-91 11:35> ParaNet(sm) Information Service wrote:

PI=>This is to welcome three new affiliates to the ParaNet
PI=>family.
PI=>
PI=>John Hrusovszky
PI=>ParaNet KAPPA(sm)
PI=>Auburndale, WI
PI=>715-652-2758 9600 HST
PI=>
PI=>John Feilke
PI=>ParaNet LAMBDA(sm)
PI=>Lincolnton, NC
PI=>704-732-1852 9600 HST
PI=>
PI=>Pat Pushor
PI=>ParaNet MU(sm)
PI=>Calgary, Alberta CANADA
PI=>403-289-1209 2400
PI=>
PI=>On behalf of ParaNet, WELCOME!  Please take a moment and
PI=>introduce yourselves to the group.
PI=>
PI=>Michael Corbin
PI=>Director

Hello all,
         I'm John and am sysop of ParaNet Lambda(sm) here in Lincolnton,
North Carolina. y'all come on by and sit a spell.
         Our board is dedicated to getting as much information into the
publics hands as possible. For too long have they been informed by
supermarket tabs and disinformation. It is past time for that. If you have
a informed populice then your questions must be answered.

John

--
John Feilke - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: cwns2.ins.cwru.edu!ak842
Subject: Re: Bill Cooper
Date: 16 Apr 91 23:25:48 GMT

From: [e-mail] (Douglas Dever)


The reason UFOlogists have to 'drag a UFO into Washington' is because
the government dosen't want anyone to know that UFOs *DO* exsists.  Also,
the government has enough blind followers who believe everything they're
told, that they (the government) can get anay with it.  You and I both know
they exsist.... but try telling that to someone who hangs on everything
the air-force tells them. (There people are knows as Skeptics)  Eventually
people will wise up and relieze that there are UFOs, but the question is...
WHEN?  I can't understand how people can believe that we are all alone in
the universe.  When you relieze that the universe is expanding in all
directions at the speed of light, and has been for all of time.  It
is immpossible to even estimate how long that is.  Oh well... time for me
to step off another of my mane soapboxes. :-)

****** Proud Member of The Cleveland Free-Net UFOlogy Sig ******


--
__ Douglas A. Dever __  ! INTERNET: [e-mail]
****** IRC CHAT ******  !           [e-mail] (soon I-net)
****** Niltsiar ******  ! BITNET:   ak842%cleveland.freenet.edu@cunyvm
I cannot be held responsible for this message since my foot is in my mouth.




--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Greenen)
Subject: WHAT IS REALITY?
Date: 15 Apr 91 14:05:00 GMT

I agree with you 100% on that, Pete. Thanks for the reply. I don't
know if we will find all the answers but maybe are children will
require and gain much more than us. 40 or 50 years from now our
children will probably laugh at us because we probably had the
answer right under our nose and didn't see it. That is why I don't
wear a mustache, I don't want to miss anything. ---GRIN---
       73's     ---Jim---
--
Jim Greenen - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Greenen)
Subject: nice chat
Date: 15 Apr 91 14:39:01 GMT

Had a nice sit down chat with Lars yesterday and I mention that
seems to get up-set easily, he said yes but he really is a nice guy
and I think he is a super guy. I said, OK I'll try to be careful on
what I say to him because my intention was not to light a fuse but
tohave a general conversation with him. It's really nice to know
that we have friends and I thought I might let you know. Apat on the
back feels better than a punch in the gut.   73's    ---Jim---
--
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (John Hicks)
Subject: Redlight!
Date: 16 Apr 91 07:20:00 GMT


  The Gulf Breeze Sentinel reports that 14 people observed a red light ufo from
South Shoreline Park in Gulf Breeze the night of April 6.
  The gist of the story is that they saw the light appear, slowly ascent for
about three minutes, then suddenly go bright white and vanish.
  Still photos and videotapes were made.
  More info to follow soon's I can.

                                           jbh

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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (sm)
Subject: Belgium Information
Date: 18 Apr 91 01:13:00 GMT

This file was provided by ParaNet(sm) Information Service
and its network of international affiliates.
You may freely distribute this file as long as this header
remains intact.
Date Prepared:  April 17, 1991
Contributed by: Antonio Huneeus
============================================================
For further information on ParaNet(sm), contact:
Michael Corbin
ParaNet Information Service
P.O. Box 172
Wheatridge, CO  80034-0172
or
FidoNet 1:104/422
Internet [e-mail]
===========================================================

Article as it appeared in UFO Universe, June/July 1991.

BREAKING DOWN "THE WALL" OF UFO SILENCE

FOR THE LAST SIX MONTHS, ALMOST THE ENTIRE EUROPEAN CONTINENT HAS
BEEN  PLAGUED BY A WAVE OF UFO SIGHTINGS UNSURPASSED IN  HISTORY,
PERHAPS  MOST  PUZZLING  HAVE BEEN THOSE OF  A  GIGANTIC  "FLYING
PLATFORM" SIGHTED NEAR THE GERMAN BORDER IN BELGIUM.

By Antonio Huneeus

(c)  1991  by  A. Huneeus. All  Rights  Reserved  Reprinted  with
permission   to  ParaNet(sm)  Information  Service   No   further
reproduction  is  allowed  without written  permission  from  the
author.

In  a totally unprecedented move in the history of  ufology,  the
Belgian   Air  Force  and  government  has  not  only   carefully
documented  the  great  UFO wave over Wallonia,  but  shared  its
results  with  civilian investigators and the public,  in  effect
literally  breaking  down "The Wall" of UFO  Silence  that  still
stands in the western world.
        * * *
  For  the past year, citizens in the French-speaking  region  of
Wallonia  in Belgium have experienced an extraordinary UFO  wave.
Thousands  of witnesses, including dozens of gendarmes  (national
police)  and  officers of the Belgian Air Force,  have  described
triangular-shaped vehicles flying slowly over rooftops, hovering,
shooting  searchlights and performing incredible  maneuvers.  The
objects  have been captured on some 25 videotapes and tracked  on
both ground and airborne radar by the military.
  Few, if any, will doubt that the triangular UFOs have been seen
all  over Wallonia since November of 1989. According to  a  front
page  story in The Wall Street Journal published on  October  10,
1990   and  entitled  "Belgium  Scientists  Seriously  Pursue   A
Triangular UFO," "since the rash of sightings here began almost a
year  ago,  more than ]2,600 have been reported of  a  triangular
object  with  three huge lights hovering in the  night  sky  over
Wallonia."  The  question that some are asking is  whether  these
objects  could  be explained by the testing of a new  top  secret
military  aircraft. Remotely Piloted Vehicles (RPVs), AWACS,  the
F-117 Stealth Fighter, and a modified version of the B-2  Stealth
Bomber, are some of the options that have been suggested.
  Besides  the large amount of well documented data  gathered  by
the  Gendarmerie, the Air Force and civilian scientists from  the
Belgian  Society for the Study of Space Phenomena  (SOBEPS),  the
Belgian Map has broken another record. For the first time ever in
the  controversial  history of UFOs anywhere in  the  world,  the
Belgian  Minister of Defense, Guy Coeme, has authorized  the  Air
Force  to fully cooperate with SOBEPS, forwarding their  reports,
and  even  putting at their disposal a  Hawker  Sideley  aircraft
equipped  with  infrared  cameras  and  sophisticated  electronic
sensors.

 As the well known French physicist, Jean Pierre Petit, explained
to  Paris  Match magazine, "we are living in a time that  is  the
beginning  of  a  period  of  openness.  First  the  Berlin  Wall
crumbled,  now  the  wall  of  silence  about  UFOs  is  falling.
Concerning the UFOs, we are entering a phase completely different
from the earlier ones. It is the end of commercialism and fakery.
The  true  scientists are finally making their  appearance."  Dr.
Petit  is  a senior physicist and director of research  with  the
National Center for Scientific Research of France. An  iconoclast
and a world class expert on magnetohydrodynamcs (MHD), Dr.  Petit
has  also conducted some rather interesting UFO research  of  his
own,  publishing recently his results in the book,  INVESTIGATION
OF UFOS.
     Unlike  many other UFO groups around the world,  the  SOBEPS
has  a  team of respected scientists, including  Leon  Brenig,  a
nonlinear  dynamics theorist at the Free University in  Brussels,
and  Professor  August  Meessen, a physicist  from  the  Catholic
University at Louvain. Among the numerous UFO witnesses, in fact,
were  Lucien  Clerebaut,  Secretary General  of  SOBEPS,  Patrick
Ferryn, a film producer and founding member, and Jose  Fernandez,
another SOBEPS investigator. "Here is an opportunity where we can
apply the scientific method," remarked Professor Brenig.
   SOBEPS  files  show that the first sightings occurred  on  the
night  of  November  7,  1989, when  two  gendarmes  from  Esneux
observed a silent huge craft "with two very powerful white lights
directed  downwards and 'a sort of green and red  garland.'"  The
flap,  however, gained momentum and notoriety on the  evening  of
November 29 when 41 witnesses, including six gendarmes,  observed
the huge triangle - sometimes referred as "a stationary  platform
"  - in Eupen, Verviers, and several other locations in  Wallonia
near the border with Germany. As the press speculated with  AWACS
and Stealth aircraft on the following days, the Defense  Minister
Guy  Coeme dismissed these rumors, stating that  "all  hypotheses
involving the presence of military aircraft in our air space  are
definitely to be ruled out. "

<Continued in next message..>

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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: ncar!ugw.utcs.utoronto.ca!VM1.YorkU.CA!YSCS1296
Subject:      Sitchin
Date: 18 Apr 91 21:19:01 GMT

From: User <[e-mail]>



Visiting my local bookstore today, I chanced upon a series of books
with one of them entitled GENESIS REVISITED, and another called
THE 12TH PLANET.  I can't recall the author name.  Sitchin,
or something like that.  Anyway, they are a series of 5 books that
talk about basically the theory that humans are descended from ETs.
I browsed through a few of them, and there are lots of photos, etc.
What was most interesting was that in GENESIS REVISITED, there was a
whole section on the alien threat as we have discussed it on Paranet,
including SPECIFIC references and DIRECT quotations of Regan's speeches
that was mentioned in the KRILL documents (his reference to the
extra-terresterial threat to humanity).  Kind of gave me a shiver down
the spine.  Unfortunately, I did not have enough money (nor perhaps
want to) for the books so did not buy them - although my curiousity
is piqued enough to warrant that in the future.
There was a reference to Planet X - the alleged 10th planet after Pluto.
Also much data on the Mars Face, etc.
All in all, a whole shipload of Paranet-ish material.
I was surprised these books were not more popular or talked about.  The
subject of alien-descended homo sapiens should be quite controversial.
The author might even be harrassed by those 'die-hard church-types'.




--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: ncar!ugw.utcs.utoronto.ca!VM1.YorkU.CA!YSCS1296
Subject:      OBE
Date: 18 Apr 91 21:20:18 GMT

From: User <[e-mail]>

Since Paranet is not UFOnet, here is something which may or may not be
directly or indirectly related to UFOs (sounds like those disclaimer
things you get from stuff you purchase..)

Do we have anyone here with info on Astral Projections?

Specifically, I want to know how to induce an OBE, and what risks there are
once one is astrally projected:  e.g., what of the claims from Hubbard that
there are 'machines' that the higher-dimension entities can use to capture
your lifeforce once it exits the body?  What about the silver-thread thing
that I keep hearing about from the likes of Shirley Maclaine?

With OBEs, who needs Mr. Scott, eh?




--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Steve Rose)
Subject: Again?
Date: 17 Apr 91 05:23:31 GMT

In a message to all <16 Apr 91 00:20> John Hicks wrote:

 JH>  The Gulf Breeze Sentinel reports that 14 people observed a red
 JH> light ufo from South Shoreline Park in Gulf Breeze the night of April 6.
 JH>  The gist of the story is that they saw the light appear, slowly
 JH> ascent for about three minutes, then
 JH> suddenly go bright white and vanish.


Hmmmm...isn't it about the time for them to gear up for the upcoming tourist
season?  This seems to becoming a springtime ritual.





--
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********To have your comments in the next issue, send electronic mail to********
                      'infopara' at the following address:

UUCP  {ncar,isis,boulder}!scicom!infopara
DOMAIN  [e-mail]
ADMIN Address [e-mail]
  {ncar,isis,boulder}!scicom!infopara-request

******************The**End**of**Info-ParaNet**Newsletter************************


                Info-ParaNet Newsletters   Volume I  Number 393

                            Sunday, April 21st 1991

Today's Topics:

                                    New Files
                           Confrontations/book Review
                                 Vallee Responds
                             The `harvest' Continues
                                `harvest' Part Ii
                           Re our humanoid 'visitors'
                                     (none)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Don Ecker)
Subject: New Files
Date: 18 Apr 91 15:09:00 GMT

Starting this week in the ASK_UFO echo, with permission of
the publishers of UFO Magazine I am beginning a series of
uploads of articles and book reviews of previous issues of
UFO Magazine. These articles range the gamut from
mutilations to overflights of nuclear power plants to
abduction research. The book reviews touch on everything
new coming into the field. Be sure to check the ASK_UFO
echo and catch everything that you have been missing.

Don

--
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INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (sm)
Subject: Confrontations/book Review
Date: 18 Apr 91 22:14:00 GMT


 * Forwarded from "Ask UFO Magazine"
 * Originally from Don Ecker
 * Originally dated 04-18-91 09:42

This file is provided to the ParaNet<sm> Information Service by
UFO Magazine. All rights are reserved. You may distribute this file
freely as long as this header remains intact.

Date prepared: 4/18/91
Contributed by: Staff UFO Magazine

=================================================================
UFO Magazine Vol. 5 No. 3 < Atomic Perspectives >


CONFRONTATIONS
 A Scientist's Search for
Alien Contact

 New York: Ballantine Books, 1990..
 252 pp. $19.95

  Almost a legendary figure, Jacques Vallee has done it once more
in the UFO field. Confrontations is, as Vallee said it on the
cover, "A scientist's search for alien contact.  "
   Known for his previous best selling works such as Anatomy of a
Phenomenon, Passport to Magonia and Dimensions, Vallee has written
a book that will not be well received by the  "space-brother "
faction in UFOlogy. On the other hand, he is an equal opportunity
author; the nuts-and-bolts crowd will not like it either.
  With Confrontations, Vallee continues to be controversial in the
mainstream UFO Field. In past best selling works such as Messengers
of Deception and Passport to Magonia, Vallee stirred the field with
his unorthodox approach, and the conclusions he alluded to if not
made outright. Having researched in previous works the folklore of
past generations, and delivering the more contemporary warnings of
cult manipulations and intelligence infiltration into the UFO
field, Vallee now explores the UFO riddle via painful and sometimes
lethal encounters.
  This book is not to be confused with the wide-eyed wonder of
Spielberg's "Close Encounters of the Third Kind, " in which a
Vallee-like  character was portrayed by French actor Francois
Truffaut. On the  other hand, this is also not quite a
 "War of the Worlds" scenario that  would fit into so many
purveyors of  misinformation. It falls into the middle, and while
not saying that all UFOs are bad, it does say that witnesses should
be damned careful!
   Vallee manages to take the reader on a journey to never-never
land, in Central and South America. It is a journey worth
experiencing in print, as most of us will never make it
there in fact, and after assimilating what Vallee offers, I dare
say that we would not want to. Vallee's UFOs are not the comforting
symbols of the Billy Meier crowd, and they also fail the test of
the Leo Sprinkle or Budd Hopkins variety. Here is a brief sample:

"In most cases the witnesses reported rectangular objects
(sometimes compared to ice boxes) flying over the treetops and
shining a beam toward the earth.  The chupas (UFOs) are said to
make a humming sound like a refrigerator or a transformer, and this
sound does not change when the object accelerates.  The object does
not seem large enough to contain a human pilot. It has a light on
the bottom and a light at one end, giving a sealed beam like a car
headlight.
   "The victims were Abel Boro, who died on October 17, 1981, while
hunting with Ribamar Ferreira; Raimundo Souza, who died on October
19, 1981, while hunting with Anastacio Barbosa; Jose Vitorio and
Dionizio General, who died on an undetermined date, the latter
three days after the UFO encounter; and a man named Ramon, who
lived in Parnarama.
  "Muldoon and Richman quoted the mayor of Parnarama as confirming
the cases, and the chief of police, Geraldo dos Santos Magela, as
stating that he had examined two of the bodies, finding that the
blood had been sucked from them."

  Not the kind of information that either the "New Age" crowd or
the "Nuts and Bolts " bunch may want to hear, but this book should
be on the must read list of any serious UFO researcher or devotee.
 However, there still are a couple of "caveat emptors." I totally
disagree with Vallee on his conclusion with reference to the
abduction question, as many undoubtedly will. The evidence is
overwhelming that this mystery has affected possibly thousands of
individuals, in a manner that far exceeds any possible psychosis.
Vallee does not acknowledge the overwhelming physical evidence or
the wide range of various  "victims " which encompasses all
different social, economic, and ethnic groupings. The enigma is
real, Jacques, and the clock may be ticking. Another area dismissed
is the idea that what we MAY be dealing with is an extraterrestrial
phenomenon. Even with all the information developed in connection
with the alleged Roswell case and the testimony from over a hundred
witnesses, not one word is mentioned by Vallee. The evidence from
this case is persuasive that POSSIBLY hardware from off world
visited here in 1947. Could it be that this information makes the
author very uncomfortable, since his stand is very anti-ET? Neither
this magazine nor this writer is stating that the hypothesis of ET
coming for a visit is the only explanation. There are many theories
of what may be occurring. But Vallee may miss the boat if he closes
his mind to this possibility.   One thing to remember about this
work is the extensive travels and research the author carried out.
Vallee's research skills and scholarship have been sorely missed in
the ufological community; I for one am glad to see him back in the
active research arena.    I think that this account will end up as
a yardstick to judge future efforts. Confrontations is a book that
will open your eyes to what a truly mysterious world the UFO
inhabits, no matter where you stand.
                       -Don Ecker-


PS Vallee replied to the above, his reply follows.


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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (sm)
Subject: Vallee Responds
Date: 18 Apr 91 22:15:00 GMT


 * Forwarded from "Ask UFO Magazine"
 * Originally from Don Ecker
 * Originally dated 04-18-91 10:44

This file was provided to the ParaNet<sm> Information Service by
UFO Magazine. All rights are reserved. You may distribute this file
freely as long as this header remains intact.

Date prepared: 4/18/91
Contributed by: Staff UFO Magazine

=================================================================
UFO Magazine Vol. 5 No. 4 (Coping with ABDUCTION)

In our last issue, writer Don Ecker reviewed the new
book by scientist and UFO researcher Jacques Vallee,
Confrontations.  Vallee took exception to some facets of
the review. Because of its length, we are running his
response as a Forum article.

            ******************************************
THE REALITY OF ABDUCTION
                                by Jacques Vallee


  The review of Confrontations (Vol. 5, No. 3) calls for a response
and a few comments.
   On the topic of abductions, Don states that "the evidence is
overwhelming that this mystery has affected possibly thousands of
individuals in a manner that far exceeds any possible psychosis."
I totally agree with that statement. Where did I ever say that
abductees were victims of psychosis?
  On the contrary, Confrontations gives several examples of
abduction cases that I have personally researched: the episode with
Mrs. Victor in Chapter 6 fits a classic pattern, I have said that,
in such reports, "I cannot agree with Philip Klass'conclusion that
the witness is making up the whole episode. The abduction
experience is real." Why is there such confusion, then, about my
position on this issue? Simply because I do not believe that
everything retrieved under hypnosis should be taken at face value.
  I have stated (and will continue to state) that much of what
passes for abduction research today is unscientific, unethical
garbage that reeks of standard cult recruitment techniques. My
appeals to more caution have infuriated some abduction researchers,
who have made up the story that "Vallee rejects all abduction
cases." Nothing could be further from the truth. Not only do I
accept these cases, but I believe their evidence is much too
important to be treated in the superficial way evidenced in the
work of many "abductionists." I refer the reader to the ten-page
discussion of the issue in Confrontations, starting on page 170.
On the extraterrestrial origin of UFOs, my position is clear, too.
If the witnesses are telling the truth about the behavior of the
phenomenon, then it could be from anywhere at anytime. This
naturally includes other planets in outer space, and I have not
rejected this hypothesis; I only think it is insufficient. And
there are many other, possibly more promising hypotheses that have
not been seriously considered.
  How could I "close my mind" to the possibility of
extraterrestrial intervention? It is an hypothesis I defended
vigorously 25 years ago. But we cannot be dogmatic in front of the
data that has been accumulating during that period, much of which
now contradicts the first level ETH (extraterrestrial hypothesis)
to which most of American ufology is still clinging. It is time to
open our minds to other possibilities.
   Don rightly notices that I have not treated the issue of
"saucer crashes," notably Roswell, in Confrontations. This may seem
to be an important omission, but it was the result of a conscious
decision, which was clearly disclosed at the very beginning. In the
introduction, I took pains to state that I regarded three impor-
tant topics to lie outside the scope of the book. They were the
possible relevance of cult movements to the UFO phenomenon, cattle
mutilations and government intervention and "cover-up." There is
much to say, as everyone knows, about all three subjects, but a
scientist learns to focus on a single issue at a time. The
central theme in Confrontations was field research methodology and
physical evidence. I may develop the other topics in a future work,
and the Roswell crash (and other crashes) will then be treated
under the rubric of "Government intervention and cover-up " where
it rightly belongs.
  In the meantime I did describe in great detail the analysis of
physical samples reported to have come from UFOs, several of which
I have in my possession and can supply to colleagues who would like
to analyze them. I cannot make the same statement about the Roswell
material, and I do not know anyone who can. It would have been
inappropriate to mention Roswell in a book on the analysis of UFO
evidence, no matter how many people have become fascinated with
this particular story, because there is no Roswell material
available to be analyzed. Again it is a case of individual readers
projecting their own expectations into a very complicated topic,
and expressing their frustration when conclusions are presented
which differ from their own. There is very little I can do, as a
scientist, to alleviate this problem. But I am grateful to Don
Ecker for having set the framework for a useful and timely
debate.

                                 -Jacques Vallee-




=================================================================

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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (sm)
Subject: The `harvest' Continues
Date: 18 Apr 91 22:15:00 GMT


 * Forwarded from "Ask UFO Magazine"
 * Originally from Don Ecker
 * Originally dated 04-18-91 13:02

This file was provided to the ParaNet<sm> Information Service by
UFO Magazine. All rights are reserved. You may distribute this file
freely as long as this header remains intact.

Date prepared: 4/18/91
Contributed by: Staff UFO Magazine

=================================================================
UFO Magazine Vol. 5 No. 4 ( Coping With Abduction )

The `Harvest' Continues
ANIMAL MUTILATION UPDATE
                           by Linda Moulton Howe

  In 1989, there were so many cattle mutilations in southern Idaho
that Bear Lake County Sheriff Brent Bunn told me, "We haven't seen
anything like this since the 1970s." Sheriff Bunn sent me 16
neatly-typed  "Investigation Reports" about cattle mutilations that
had taken place in his county between May and December. Over half
occurred in a remote valley called Nounan. Only eighty people live
there. Ranching is their main income source, and cattle are
precious. Disease and predators are old and well-understood
enemies.

  What descended on Nounan, Idaho in the summer and fall of 1989
was not understood-and it scared people. Bloodless and precise
cuts-that's what bothers people. Officer Gregg Athay wrote in his
mutilation report, "There were no visible signs of the cause of
death. It appeared that only the soft tissues (nose, lips and
tongue) were gone off the head and four nipples off the bag. Again
there was no blood on the hair and ground."

  No veterinarian report was made on that cow. But a month earlier,
Dr. Charles Merrell at the Bear Lake Animal Hospital examined a
dead Hereford cow. Dr. Merrell wrote after his examination:  "Some
time between approximately 8 p.m. (August 31, 1989) and 7 a.m. 1
September, the anus, vagina to include uterus and ovaries and all
four teats (one teat deeply incised, the others shallow cuts) were
removed by knife cuts around these tissues.  There were no signs of
injury and no blood to be found on the ground. " A neighbor,
Bernice Laughter, said she saw lights in that area about 2 a.m. on
September 1.

Disks reported

  Throughout the history of animal mutilations, since 1967, there
have been numerous eyewitness accounts of large, glowing disks or
"silent helicopters " over pastures where dead animals are later
found. One Waco, Texas rancher said he encountered two four-foot
tall, light green-colored  "creatures " with large, black, slanted
eyes, carrying a calf which was later found dead and mutilated. In
1983, a Missouri couple watched through binoculars as two small
beings in tight-fitting silver suits worked on a cow in a nearby
pasture. The alien heads were large and white in color. Nearby, a
tall, green-skinned "lizard man" stood glaring with eyes slit by
vertical pupils like a crocodiles's. Several hypnosis sessions with
various UFO abductees have produced information suggesting that the
alien intruders are using the tissues and blood fluids for genetic
experimentation and sustenance.

  One Missouri woman, who has experienced repeated encounters with
small grey beings that have large, black eyes, sid the creatures
told her, "We use substances from cows in an essential biochemical
process for our survival." In the 1989 continuing harvest, over
half of the Idaho mutilations were young calves. One mutilated
calf, found December 24, north of Downey, Idaho, was found lying on
its back with the navel, rectum and genitals neatly cut out of the
steer's white belly. No blood was found anywhere. (See photo, p.
18.)   This steer calf was taken for an autopsy to Dr. Chris Oats,
D.V.M., at the Hawthorne Animal Hospital. Dr. Oats checked all the
vital organs and was unable to determine the cause of death. During
the autopsy, a sharp cut was found in the right chest area, and Dr.
Oats discovered that a main artery had been severed under the chest
wound.

  She was surprised that "the steer had lost a large amount of
blood, but [she] could not understand where it went to. " There was
no blood on the steer or on the ground. Dr. Oats also determined
that the steer had not been dragged by the neck or tied up around
the feet.

  Residents of southern Idaho weren't alone in their fear and con-
fusion about the mutilations. William Veenhuizen woke up on July
17,
1989 to find his finest cow mutilated about 100 yards from his
farmhouse in Maple Valley, Washington, southeast of Seattle. The
six-year-old female was due to calve in about three weeks. But
mutilators had cut away a smooth oval section of the cow's mouth,
removed a section of jaw with teeth, excised the tongue and cut out
the entire udder, vagina and rectal area. The calf was still inside
the belly.

 Something woke Mr. Veenhuizen up around I a.m. that day, he
remembers. He even put his shoes on and went outside, but he
couldn't see or hear anything out of the ordinary. He was so upset
after the mutilation, he started keeping the rest of his animals
inside the barn.  "A neighbor said to me that coyotes did it," he
said, "but I said the coyotes don't have that sharp a knife."

 Other farms hit

  Bill Veenhuizen wasn't the only farmer in Maple Valley,
Washington having mutilation problems. On Sunday, November 11, two
female sheep were found with their sexual organs removed. The
Hicks-Raburn King County Police found small holes on the carcasses
that they concluded might be BB gun pellet wounds, but no pellets
were found.

Cont. next file.

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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (sm)
Subject: `harvest' Part Ii
Date: 18 Apr 91 22:15:00 GMT


 * Forwarded from "Ask UFO Magazine"
 * Originally from Don Ecker
 * Originally dated 04-18-91 13:04

This file was provided to the ParaNet<sm> Information Service by
UFO Magazine. All rights are reserved. You may distribute this file
freely as long as this header remains intact.

Date prepared: 4/18/91
Contributed by: Staff UFO Magazine

=================================================================
UFO Magazine Vol. 5. No. 4. ( Coping with Abduction )

-cont. from last message_

Mystery technology

  Another major question: Had the blood been drained from all those
animals without cutting them? If alien life forms are responsible,
and blood is a fluid they need for sustenance, do the aliens have
a technology which can transfer molecules of blood from within a
living system and leave mysteriously dead animals behind having no
cuts at all: The same question might apply to the hundreds of wild
horses which were found dead in Nevada in 1989.

  In November, 1989, in Red Cloud, Nebraska, rancher Ron Bartels
found a large, 1,000 lb. Chianina cow dead and mutilated. The
Franklin County Sheriff Department investigated, and veterinarian
Carl Guthrie, D.V.M., was asked to do a necropsy. In his report, he
stated that a four-inch straight incision had been made over the
cervical trachea. Beyond that cut inside the animal, over eight
inches of trachea and esophagus had been surgically removed- "The
skin over the abdomen was removed in a clear, demarcated line-no
musculature disturbed," he noted. And the rectum and vagina were
cored out.

Predators discounted

  Dr. Guthrie concluded:  "There were definite signs of suspicious
acts to the body of this cow-the nature in which the skin was
severed and removed was not characteristic of a predator strike."

  In addition to those cuts described by Dr. Guthrie, the neat
circular patch of skin removed around the cow's eye, along with the
eyeball, has been one of the hallmarks of animal mutilations since
the 1970s. Rancher Ron Bartels told me, ". . . after several days,
there had been no predation, and with the number of coyotes we now
have in this area, they completely strip a carcass very quickly."
But nothing touched the strangely cut cow.  How are the cuts made:
In my book An Alien Harvest, published in 1989, I show for the
first time that tissue gathered from mutilator cuts in Arkansas on
March 11, 1989, revealed the following characteristics under
microscopic examination:
1) The line is pinpoint thin;
2) The line was subjected to high heat, probably 300 degrees
Fahrenheit or above, leaving a hard and darkened edge;
3) The cuts were made rapidly, probably in two minutes or less,
because there is no inflammatory cell destruction which typically
begins in a few minutes after any trauma to tissue
(See contrasting photomicrographs).

  In addition to the 1989 mutilation reports in Idaho, Washington,
Nebraska and Arkansas, there have been other cases in Colorado,
Oklahoma, Missouri and Florida. Further, over 800 wild horses in
Nevada have died mysteriously, about 70 domestic cats have been
Found dead and bloodlessly mutilated in Tustin, California and 30
more cats in the East Bay of San Francisco. A city employee in
Setauket, Long Island, NY, has reported to me that about a dozen
raccoons, opossums, dogs and cats have been found in Percy Rayner
bloodlessly mutilated with cuts similar to cows. I have also
received calls about mutilations in Canada, but have no firm
photographs or reports.

  After An Alien Harvest was released in June of 1989, I received
a letter from a security guard in Denver, Colorado. He described a
night in August when he was patrolling the grounds of a large
corporation west of the city. From his truck, he could see a large
circle of lights in the dark sky. The lights remained stationary
over a pasture a few hundred feet from the security guard. He was
afraid to report the unidentified flying objects, because UFOs
meant ridicule and he didn't want to lose his job. But he felt
guilty about not reporting it, because the next morning he watched
a farmer gather up a couple of dead and mutilated cows from the
pasture where the lights had hovered overhead. He asked me, "What
kind of technology are we talking about? I never took my eyes off
those lights. There was no beam, no sound, nothing. How did they do
it?"

  That's a question which has haunted ranchers and law enforcement
since the first worldwide reported mutilation of a horse in  1967.
Not only how-but why? If alien life forms are intruding on this
planet and harvesting from animals and humans, is a program of
genetic experimentation and sustenance the answer? Or only part of
a larger alien need? Will the 1990s finally bring humans face to
face with an alien intelligence that has secretly used earth life
for eons? As we become more conscious of its presence, will we
learn that the alien intent is simply to survive without human
help? Or is there some larger and more complex alien scheme which
could challenge the future of human existence?

                                -Linda Moulton Howe-


End of file.

--
ParaNet(sm) Information Service - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: ParaNet(sm)[e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: ncar!oxy.edu!yokatta
Subject: Re our humanoid 'visitors'
Date: 19 Apr 91 20:43:10 GMT

From: [e-mail] (Scott Littleton)

RE OUR HUMANOID 'VISITORS'

     Contrary to Steven Nelson's assertion that our alien 'visitors' shouldn't
be humanoids, I suspect that one of the reasons they're so interested in us is
precisely BECAUSE they resemble us so closely. Indeed, I suspect that they
evolved--perhaps a few thousand Earth-years earlier than Homo sapiens
sapiens--on a planet of about the same mass and geologic composition as the
Earth, one that orbits at approximately the same distance from a Sun-like
yellow dwarf. Parallel evolution, cultural as well as biological, is fairly
common on this planet. Examples can be seen in the cultural similarities
among all ancient riverine civilizations, from Nazca to Sumer, and the fact
that Northwest Europeans and the Ainu of Northern Japan share a great many
physical traits in common, despite the low probability of significant genetic
interchange among them in pre-modern times.  In both instances, the
similarities are due to common adaptation to common environments.

     To be sure, the ancient Peruvians were by no means culturally identical
to the ancient Iraqis, nor could an Ainu pass as an Englishman. The same seems
to hold for the most commonly reported variety of 'visitors.' They're
typically described as shorter and stockier than most adult human beings, with
neotonic features and grey, wrinkled skins; they are also sometimes said to
wear a breathing apparatus of some sort (although they don't seem to need it
at all times). All of this would seem to imply a slightly more massive home
planet with a somewhat denser atmosphere--our sea level may be equivalent to
La Paz, Bolivia, as far as they're concerned--with less intense UV from their
primary (ergo less need for protective melanin or its equivalent), to say
nothing of a technology at least as far ahead of ours as Cortes' was vis-a-vis
that of the Aztecs in 1519.

     Perhaps they see in both our cultures and our biology a reflection of
their own distant past--which might go far in explaining the grand,
longitudinal ethnography they seem to have been conducting among Homo sapiens
sapiens for lo these many millennia.

     In sum, speaking as an anthropologist, I really don't think that the
reported physical similarities between ourselves and the creatures who pilot
UFOs are a major problem when it comes to assessing the reality of the
phenomenon.  The apparent absence of 'hard evidence' is another matter, though
maybe someday the governments (our own and others) will decide that we are in
fact mature enough to handle the truth without suffering a complete cultural
break-down. . . .

     Cheers,

     C. Scott Littleton
     Occidental College
     Los Angeles, CA 90041

     P.S. Another widespread assumption also needs to be challenged: There is
no reason to assume that individual 'greys' are inherently (i.e., genetically)
brighter than individual human beings. Remember, Cortes wasn't necessarily
Montezuma's intellectual superior, merely the product of a culture that had
evolved a vastly more complex technology--thanks to the domestication several
thousand years earlier of LARGE domestic animals (the ox, the horse, etc.)
whose energy could be harnessed to pull plows, etc.  If similar beasts (e.g.,
a more docile sub-species of the North American bison) had roamed the Valley
of Mexico at the time the first experiments in maize agriculture began,
Columbus might have passed his Aztec counterpart in mid-Atlantic!  Perhaps we
shall someday come to realize that the principal reason we're not abducting
'them' and subjecting "them" to elaborate physical examinations, etc., is that
we, like the ancient Mexicans, lack a crucial environmental resource and/or
have failed to make a major discovery of some sort (cf. the fact that the
wheel never played an important part in ancient New World technology).




--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: ncar!ecn.purdue.edu!lush
Subject: (none)
Date: 19 Apr 91 20:43:57 GMT

From: [e-mail] (Gregory B Lush)



--------------------------------------------------------------------


+   From: [e-mail] (John Hicks)
+   Subject: The Grey Men Tape (6)
+   Date: 12 Apr 91 07:44:00 GMT


+     Did you personally type the messages from the original publication
+   and check for accuracy?

Is this directed at me?

Yes I typed it right out of the book.  I kept typos in if I felt it
was not my business to change it.  For instance, if 'the' was spelt
'teh', I changed it.  Meanwhile, they identify a person as Senator
John Hansen in one instance and George Hansen in another.
I didn't change that.  All capitalized (highlighted) sentences/words
are of the author.

I checked as best I could, but I didn't read my version and their
version side-by-side.  Is there a specific question?

Greg Lush ([e-mail])





********To have your comments in the next issue, send electronic mail to********
                      'infopara' at the following address:

UUCP  {ncar,isis,boulder}!scicom!infopara
DOMAIN  [e-mail]
ADMIN Address [e-mail]
  {ncar,isis,boulder}!scicom!infopara-request

******************The**End**of**Info-ParaNet**Newsletter************************


                Info-ParaNet Newsletters   Volume I  Number 394

                            Sunday, April 21st 1991

Today's Topics:

                                 Human visitors
                                     Again?
                            Re: Statements of accepta
                           Re: Gravitational magnetism
                              Extraordinary Claims
                            Re: Statements of accepta
                                  Moondome.Zip
                             Belgium Information (2)
                             Belgium Information (3)
                        Belgium Information (Conclusion)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Jim Greenen)
Subject: Human visitors
Date: 17 Apr 91 13:38:00 GMT


 * Replying to a message originally to All
 ee> From: [e-mail] (Steven Nelson)
 ee>
 ee>
 ee>
 ee>         Why are the visitors so humanlike? Given the
 ee> complexity of the
 ee> evolutionary process, the odds that aliens would have such
 ee> a human shape as is
 ee> commonly reported seems rather implausible. Parallel
 ee> evolution adapts creatures
 ee> that live in similar environments to similar shapes, yet
 ee> certainly there's no
 ee> reason to assume that our planet and any alien planet would
 ee> be remotely
 ee> similar.
 ee>         I hold out, at present, no explanations. I would
 ee> not invalidate the
 ee> phenomenon based on this point, but I find that this datum,
 ee> which many
 ee> researchers seem to ignore, is essential to understanding
 ee> the UFO phenomenon.
 ee>
 ee>         I use Whitley Streiber's term 'visitors' simply
 ee> because it is less
 ee> committal than the term 'aliens.'
 ee>
 ee> Does anyone have any comments?
 ee>
 ee> -Steve

Hi Steve; I think that if you look at what one single cell has done
when a new child is born, you can apply that to the birth of a new
planet or solar system. Very much the same but different. Have you
thought about the possibly that we might be transplants from some
other solar system. If you read the great book, it mentions the
angels came down and mated with man. We can assume that a sprirt
can't mate with a mortal, then who were the angels they mention?
Good question that could be debated and has for many centurys.
   Also if you believe the people that have cllaimed to have seen or
been in contact with aliens, you will get a lot of different types
and shapes that are reported as you mentioed. This is what we should
be reseaching in rather then debating if they are here or not.
          73's      ---Jim---
--
Jim Greenen - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (John Hicks)
Subject: Again?
Date: 17 Apr 91 19:25:00 GMT


 > Hmmmm...isn't it about the time for them to gear up for the
 > upcoming tourist season?  This seems to becoming a springtime
 > ritual.

  Good point. Seems like something happens early every April.

                                           jbh

--
John Hicks - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (John Tender)
Subject: Re: Statements of accepta
Date: 15 Apr 91 08:02:36 GMT



 >>      I am looking for statements they have committed to print and public
 >> distribution;

 JS> Sorry; can't really help you there. I do believe that the
 JS> statements you seek exist in many places, most notably the
 JS> Skeptical Inquirer, but I couldn't cite you specific references.

     I was of the same 'impression' re the Skeptical Inquirer; what I
can't understand is, when I ask people who I feel should be familiar
with this material to give references, in order to substantiate or
unsubstantiate the general impressions, I get nowhere. That says
something, either about the material or the people.

 >>      Such statements would be quite valuable. It would at least show how
 >> competent these guys are as scientists (assuming they would actually
 >> write their own stuff) as opposed to propagandists.

 JS> It is my impression that these guys are competent "scientific
 JS> thinkers." (Define "scientist.") I am not by any stretch of the

     I would rather define what is "scientific" rather than trust a
"scientist" to be always "scientific".

     So, now my stab at a definition of "scientific": 1) Objective and
repeatable standards of measurement, 2) objective and consistent
validation of data, uncoupled to any specific theory or hypothesis, 3)
Explicit statement of all assumptions, 4) Explicit and quantitative
formulation of theories, either algorithmically or heuristically.

 JS> imagination a "scientist", but I believe I've got a grasp on
 JS> how the thinking process goes. While I disagree with their
 JS> parameters for evidence, I recognize that there is enough room
 JS> for gentlemanly debate on the subject without stooping to the
 JS> degree of vilification you seem to revel in. The bottom line

     If the issue is still unclear, perhaps the "gentlemanly debate"
hasn't been as productive as you think. Perhaps we should stoop to
criticise improper thinking, even when our friends do it. On the other
hand, I 'was' engaged in sarcastic parody at some points. For that, I'll
apologize.

 JS> is, I *do* believe that "these guys" will accept *SOMETHING*
 JS> solid as evidence, and though they do seem to present a moving

     All I'm trying to do is determine exactly what that "SOMETHING" is.
As you know, it's not a question of belief; evidence acquired will make
a specific hypothesis or theory (though in the case of UFO
investigation, I think the term "explanation" is more accurate) either
more probable or less probable. Granted, trying to develop a consistent
and explicit process for evaluating exactly how much even "accepted"
evidence bolsters any particular theory is not easy. However,
materialist that I am, I assume that if the human mind is capable of
doing it then we can, with sufficient technological resources, model the
procedure, and in the process get rid of many of the aspects of human
psychology that interfere with objectivity.

 JS> target, I believe that, if UFOs are a genuine, physical
 JS> phenomenon, it is within our power to gather the requisite
 JS> amount of evidence to convince them. Of course, with some of

     "Within our power" if they have explicit and reasoned standards of
evidence.

 >>      When Rick, a member of the Bay Area Skeptics and CSICOP, evaded
 >> this issue so persistently it merely reinforced a pattern I've seen in
 >> skeptics before; using science when it is convenient, and ignoring it
 >> otherwise.

 JS> <sigh> I have seen that pattern in skeptics myself. I just
 JS> don't see it in Rick, and I don't think you should be painting
 JS> with such a broad brush.

     Everyone has blind spots; I can't claim absolute correctness. I
pointed out what I considered to be serious, and specific, lapses.

 ... from the purlieus of Pittsburgh
--
John Tender - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (John Tender)
Subject: Re: Gravitational magnetism
Date: 15 Apr 91 08:02:15 GMT


 >>      I got the impression that the mass goes through
 >> the toroid, not the coils.
 >>
 KL> He's written back that the stellar mass goes through the
 KL> coils and that the mass/movement is the cause of this
 KL> gravitational magnetism.

     Sounds like it would take quite a bit of energy to force the mass
along that path. They'd better run a 440 line to the generator.

 >>      What are "Planck energy values"?

 KL> Values of energies present at the birth of our universe.

     If these are energy values, then the exact magnitude is
meaningless, since we can arbitrarily choose whatever units we wish. In
the comparison I made, the 10e40 ratio is independent of the unit of
measurement.

     I'll try to look up a copy of Zee's book. In the meantime, two
quick questions: Energies of what? At what time after the BB does this
refer? ("birth" is a little ambiguous.)

 KL> A. Zee, Gravity, an Old Man's Toy.
 >>
 >>      The 10e40 value for comparative field strength of
 >> the EM force over the gravitational force comes from a
 >> comparison of the field strengths for specific particles.

 KL> Yes, but that's a misapplication of the forces involved with
 KL> the scale of distances being used to carry this discussion.

     It might be a misapplication, but not because of the scale. As I
said, the ratio is valid for any distance, since both EM and G field
strengths are proportional to 1/r^2. There would be a problem with
comparing the other fundamental interactions, since they do not share
the same property.

 ... from the purlieus of Pittsburgh
--
John Tender - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (John Tender)
Subject: Extraordinary Claims
Date: 17 Apr 91 08:25:42 GMT


 RM> A claim is extraordinary if its acceptance would require
 RM> rejecting massive amounts of well- (if tentatively) accepted,
 RM> accumulated knowledge.  This happened, for example, when

     All scientific knowledge is tentative.

     You've described an extraordinary claim; what is "extrardinary
evidence"?

 RM> geologists suddenly accepted plate tectonics in the early '60s,
 RM> when the quantity and quality of evidence _for_ tectonics
 RM> became convincing -- after 45 years.  It has never happened,
 RM> for example, with Charles Fort's hollow-earth theories, since
 RM> that evidence is, um, unconvincing.

     Exactly what were the "massive amounts of well- (if tentatively)
accepted, accumulated knowledge"  that were rejected (or if I can
interject the term contradicted) by the theory of plate tectonics?

     Based on what I know of the situation, it was considered
"extraordinary" only in the sense that no known mechanism could be
supplied to account for the movements of the plates. In other words, it
just didn't "fit in". That's a much different (and weaker) reason to
label something "extraordinary" that the one you described.
Unfortunately, I suspect it is also more often the case.

 RM> This is -=not=- a double-standard, since it is just a corollary
 RM> of the maxim that _all_ claims should be supported by
 RM> _appropriate_ evidence. (The preponderance of quantity and
 RM> quality rules.) >>

     Adopting this "maxim" means that there should be clear and specific
methods for determining what is "appropriate" evidence; otherwise, you
are right, it's not a double standard, it's a non-standard supporting
only non-science. Where can I get a copy of such rules and methods?

 RM> That statement is also frequently used to discourage honest
 RM> research into certain subjects....

 RM> For the record, as I have said here _many, many times_, I'm all
 RM> in favour of honest research, regardless of subject.
 RM> In other words, a (real or imagined) lack of proof is often
 RM> used to rationalize avoiding the very investigation that would
 RM> be required to develop such proof in the first place.

 RM> For the record, I'm against imagining a lack of proof.

 RM> For the record, I'm against rationalising.

 RM> For the record, I'm all in favour of investigations.

     For the record, it's too bad saying something over and over doesn't
make the statement any more valid.

     What's the point of favoring the investigations if you reserve the
right to 'arbitrarily' decide if the evidence they provide are valid?

 RM> If anything, 'extraordinary' claims (assuming one is
 RM> interested  enogh to follow them up in the first place)
 RM> require extraordinarily  openiminded, careful and resourceful
 RM> science....

     What 'specific' qualities distinguish "extraordinarily openiminded,
 careful and resourceful science" from the "run-of-the-mill" science. I
 doubt that it can be the same as the criteria for extraordinary
 evidence, i.e. it contradicts massive amounts of accepted science.

  RM> RM> For the record, I'm absolutely keen on open-minded, careful,
 and RM> resourceful science. RM> >> ...Period. RM> RM> Period, as long
 as one realises that any very surprising RM> result, whose acceptance
 would require massive revisions in RM> accepted scientific knowledge,
 will need to have strong RM> evidence.  This is the _ordinary_ standard
 of science, and RM> applies equally to Alfed Wegener, father of plate
 tectonics, RM> and to Robert Jahn of the Princeton PK experiments. No
 more, no RM> less.

     Nice platitudes; it's just unfortunate the real world isn't that
way. All too often evidence is rejected not because it contradicts
massive amounts of other evidence, but because the is no mechanism or
model to "explain" the data, or because of a superficial similarity to a
separate theory that was discredited.

     Submitted for your consideration: 120 years ago Bill Scientist
notes a correlation between weather patterns on earth and sunspot
activity. The scientist is ridiculed, because it is such a ridiculous
idea; "How could the sun influence the earth through the void of space?
Besides, these crackpots are linking sunspots with everything. The
evidence is obviously faulty; I reject it."

     Second submission: Joe Psychic claims he is receiving messages from
extraterrestrial entities based on Pluto. Is this claim "extraordinary"?
If so, what massive amounts of valid evidence are contradicted by this
claim.

  RM> Some people just won't accept that standard (Velikovsky, RM>
 Reich...). That's fine, but then what they do isn't science.

     Science also requires explicit and objective criteria that are
consistently applied; as long as that is lacking for the term
"extraordinary", it has no place in science.

     BTW, aren't you grandstanding on this "scientific standards" thing.
Will you just let these guys use whatever standards they damn well
please and quit whining. (sarcasm flag)

 ... from the purlieus of Pittsburgh
--
John Tender - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (John Tender)
Subject: Re: Statements of accepta
Date: 17 Apr 91 08:40:25 GMT

>> The good [text files] should be presented so that they may be acted
>> on, and the bad ones, so that they may stand as examples of how NOT
>> to think.  I suspect that if Rick kept the files up because he damn
>> well felt like it, this may be WHY he damn well felt like it.

 RM> Thank you.  That's pretty much the real reason (and it's never
 RM> been an issue in these parts).  It's just that whenever people
 RM> start grandstanding to me about how sysops _should_ run their
 RM> boards (as opposed to making suggestions), I simply tell them
 RM> to go hang.  Sysops get a continual parade of such folk, and I
 RM> have little patience for them.

     Rick, you have a tendency to twist any criticism into a personal
attack. Don't. I replied to another message here in which 'you' assert
that scientific principles have to be followed consistently. My
statements about deleting files arbitrarily, or distributing files
without warning as to known contradictions, were in line with (at least
what I consider to be) valid scientific principles. And yes, you 'don't'
get to make your own rules 'if' you want to adhere to scientifically
correct procedures. All I did was to point that out. Run your board
however you wish, but it is certainly valid to judge you on your
decisions.

     Perhaps what you have little patience for is being held to your own
standards.

 RM> I have less patience when the grandstanding is just another
 RM> ploy in a tiresome smear campaign, and none at all when that
 RM> campaign has extended (notwithstanding allegations to the
 RM> contrary) over a two year period in the FidoNet SCIENCE,
 RM> PHYSICS, and UFO conferences -- and now here, too.

     SMEAR CAMPAIGN? Get real. You construe a consistent argument about
certain "scientific" standards of evidence as a smear campaign. That is
not in keeping with your claims about "open-minded" debate.

     Can you proffer any evidence of this SMEAR CAMPAIGN? Maybe the
people on 'this' echo would like to see more than your vague
allegations. I detect an overabundance of paranoia that is usually more
characteristic of those making what skeptics label as "claims of the
paranormal".

 RM> Again, notwithstanding allegations to the contrary, I advocated
 RM> sysops' classifying download files as "Sysop's Picks" or other
 RM> _only_ as a less drastic alternative to deleting Cooper's files.

     There were never any "allegations to the contrary". Again, all I
wanted were the criteria for classifying the files, and pointed out that
"because I damn well felt like it" lacked a certain measure of
scientific correctness. I really don't want to harp on this, but if you
are going to misrepresent the situation, I have to.

 RM> Once more, notwithstanding allegations to the contrary, I am
 RM> not a "member" of CSICOP.  I serve on its Electronic
 RM> Communications Subcommittee, offering it advice and help in
 RM> that area, and do not presume to speak for it.  (To find out
 RM> CSICOP's views, contact CSICOP.) I _do_ speak for Bay Area
 RM> Skeptics, however.

     I apologize. It was totally inappropriate for me to interpret your
signature line:

    "Best Regards,
     Rick Moen, Secretary
     Bay Area Skeptics
     Member, Electronic Communications Subcommittee, CSICOP"

as implying that you were a member of CSICOP. How foolish of me. I'm
sorry if I caused any confusion by doing such a damnably stupid thing.
Thanks for the clarification.

     Would it be appropriate for me to ask if you support CSICOP's
views?

 RM> My occasional and long-time correspondant John Tender _has_,
 RM> however, suggested (in a roundabout way) a useful project:
 RM> Writing to Klass, Oberg, Sheaffer, other members of CSICOP's
 RM> UFO Subcommittee, and to other prominent UFOlogists, and ask
 RM> them _formally_ what they would accept as convincing evidence
 RM> of the ET UFO hypothesis.  (Allegations to the contrary, I
 RM> never stated that Klass, Oberg, and Sheaffer had _published_
 RM> such statements, only that they had "said" what would convince
 RM> them. They _may_ have published this; I don't remember.)
 RM> Perhaps someone else in ParaNet could do this -- I'm swamped.

     OK, they "said" it. (But they were whispering over in the corner and
everyone else was too tired and nobody remembers it and they said it in
small dribbles here and there and no one has 'any' record of it but they
said it, maybe not clearly and maybe they were wrong and who am I to
judge, but they definitely said it.) OK.

     Gee, you saw something useful in my messages? I'll have to remember
to restrain my remarks to smearing you character and filter out that
useful stuff. (sarcasm alert)

 RM> In my opinion, any skeptic who considers himself an authority
 RM> on UFOlogy (which I've consistently said I'm _not_, remember)
 RM> should be able to provide a clear -- and serious -- answer to
 RM> that question.  For that matter, so should any other avowedly
 RM> serious UFOlogist.

>> I *believe* Klass is looking for some kind of statement from a body
>> such as the National Academy of Sciences...

 RM> The _Betelgeusian_ Academy of Sciences?  <grin>

     Kim Basinger?

 RM> I think Phil Klass can probably specify a little better than
 RM> that. Fortunately, he's not at all difficult to reach.  You can
 RM> tell him that Moen is stirring up trouble again.

 RM> Best Regards,
 RM> Rick M.

 ... from the purlieus of Pittsburgh
--
John Tender - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Subject: Moondome.Zip
Date: 19 Apr 91 08:12:00 GMT


Linda, I'm happy to report the file MOONDOME.ZIP is online here.

I have forwarded a copy to Mike Corbin at ParaNet Alpha for
distribution here.

The file is text only, no illustrations.  I hope to supplement it
with scanned art & photos when time allows.  Thank you for your
patience and good reading!

Best,
  Clark


--
Clark Matthews - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (sm)
Subject: Belgium Information (2)
Date: 18 Apr 91 01:14:00 GMT

<<Continued from previous message>>

 It is perhaps because the objects are so far unidentified,  that
the  Belgian  Air Force has undertaken the task  of  chasing  and
investigating  the  intruders. As Col. Wilfried de  Brouwer,  the
Chief of Operations of the Belgian Air Force who is  coordinating
the  UFO  investigation,  told  The  Wall  Street  Journal,  "Our
approach  is that it's our job to see what's going  on."  Indeed,
the  UFO flap climaxed on the night of March 30-31 of 1990,  when
unknown targets were tracked by two radar installations. The  one
at  Glons,  located southeast of Brussels, belongs  to  the  NATO
defense group - NATO Headquarters is in Brussels - while that  at
Semmerzake,  west  of Brussels, is in charge of  controlling  all
military and civilian traffic in the entire Belgian territory. At
that  point, the master-controller at Glons ordered the  scramble
of  two  F-16 interceptors, which also locked the  UFO  on  their
onboard radars.
  We  have  obtained,  courtesy  of  French  researcher  Jean-Luc
Rivera, a copy of the complete report of this incident, which was
prepared  by  Air Force Major P. Lambrechts, from the  Air  Force
General Staff in Brussels, and which was forwarded to the  SOBEPS
following  the instructions of full cooperation with that  group.
The  "Report Concerning the Observation of UFOs During the  Night
of  March  30  to 31, 1990," includes a full  chronology  of  the
events, as well as a thick dossier of enclosures with eyewitness'
descriptions  from  several  gendarmes  and  maps  of  where  the
sightings took place.
  Major  P.  Lambrechts  explains at  the  inception  that,  "the
observations  both visual and by radar were of such nature,  that
it  was decided to order the scramble of two F-16  aircraft  with
the  goal of identifying these UFOs." The report  also  indicates
that  "the  presence or testing of B2 or F117  (Stealth  Bomber),
RPVs  (Remotely Piloted Vehicles), ULMs (Ultra  Light  Motorized)
and AWACS at the moment of these events in the Belgian  airspace,
can be excluded. "
  According  to the Chronology, the Sequence of events  began  at
22.50  hours, when the "master controller at Glons "  received  a
telephone call from gendarme Renquin, who reported he was  seeing
from  his house in Ramillies, "three unusual lights. . .  forming
an  equilateral triangle, and with changing colors of red,  green
and  yellow." At 23.05, the Gendarmerie at Wavre sent  a  patrol,
which  confirmed the observation. At 23.15, Renquin called  again
to inform that he was seeing a new set of three lights, while the
radar screens at Glons detected " an unidentified contact  moving
at  a  speed of around 25 knots." (A knot is  equivalent  to  one
nautical mile - 6,080 feet - per hour. )
  For  the  next two and a half hours, an  increasing  number  of
gendarmes  and other witnesses continued to observe  the  strange
maneuvers  of  up  to  three sets of  triangular  lights  in  the
outskirts  of  Brussels.  By 23.49 hours, the  radar  screens  at
Semmerzake confirmed the targets and the order to scramble two F-
16s  was given at 23.56 hours, taking off at 00.05 on  March  31.
According  to the report, "the aircraft had brief radar  contacts
on  several occasions." However, each time that "the pilots  were
able  to secure a lock on one of the targets for a  few  seconds,
this  resulted each time in a drastic change in the  behavior  of
the UFOs."
  During  the first lock on at 00.13, continues the report,  "the
speed of the target changed in a minimum of time from 150 to  970
knots  and  from 9,000 to 5,000 feet, returning  then  to  11,000
feet,  in  order to change again to close to ground  level;  this
resulted  in a 'break lock' in a few seconds and the pilots  lost
the radar contact." In another lock on at 00.30 hours, the "break
lock" was achieved by what the report calls "a jamming signal  on
the screen."
  Col. de Brouwer explained to Paris Match reporter Marie-Therese
de Brosses, that the change of velocity from 280 KPM to 1,800 KPH
while descending from 3,000 meters to 1,000 meters in one second,
was  a  fantastic acceleration equivalent to 40  Gs.  This  would
exclude  any human pilot onboard the UFO, since humans  can  only
withstand  8 Gs. (A "G " is a unit of acceleration equivalent  to
the  gravitational pull of the earth, 9.81 m/sec/sec.)  When  the
UFO  approached the ground level, continued Col. de Brouwer,  "it
was out of the question for the F-16 to catch up with the  object
at  this  low altitude, where the density of the air  limits  the
speed  to  1,300 KMP. Above that speed, the  temperature  in  the
compressors of the jet turbines would cause the engines to burst.
There  was a logic behind the motions of the object,"  added  the
Colonel.

In any case, the cat and mouse game went on until shortly after 1
am,  when the F-16s were ordered to return to their base. On  the
ground, however, Captain Pinson and other gendarmes continued  to
observe "four white luminous spots forming a square" until around
1.30,  when  "the four UFOs lost their luminosity and  seemed  to
disappear  in  four  different  directions."  Significantly,  the
weather conditions on that night were very clear, allowing ground
witnesses  to  observe  the objects in detail,  as  well  as  the
pursuit  by the F-16s. The pilots, however, did not  observe  the
objects visually.
  Major  Lambrechts  finally  excludes a  number  of  alternative
hypotheses  for the UFOs, such as "optical  illusions,  confusion
with   planets  or  other  meteorological  phenomena...   weather
balloons.  .  .  or meteorological inversions.  .  .  holographic
projections,"  etc. More importantly, he writes that "the  speeds
measured  at  he moment of the change of altitudes,  exclude  the
hypothesis  that  the  UFOs  observed  could  be  confused   with
aircraft. " Still more puzzling was the fact that, "despite  that
on  several  occasions high speeds above the speed of  the  sound
barrier  were measured, the shock wave was never observed.  Here,
no  explanation can be given." The French physicist  Jean  Pierre
Petit concurred: "In reality," he told Paris Match, "there is  no
machine  made  by man, either an airplane or a missile,  that  is
capable of such performance. Specifically, flying at the speed of
sound without making a sonic boom."

<<Continued in next message..>>

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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (sm)
Subject: Belgium Information (3)
Date: 18 Apr 91 01:15:00 GMT

<<<Continued from previous message>>>

  Although  the Belgian military authorities have  insisted  that
the  UFOs  in Wallonia are no secret aircraft,  the  similarities
between the triangular craft seen in Belgium with the  boomerang-
shaped objects reported throughout the last decade in the  Hudson
Valley  in  New York and Western Connecticut, as  well  as  other
triangular UFOs observed in Wytheville, Virginia, Fyffe, Alabama,
and Puerto Rico, among other places, have led some researchers to
suggest  that  the technology behind all  these  observations  is
terrestrial and not extraterrestrial.
  The similarity between the Belgian and Hudson Valley flaps  was
noted  by SOBEPS investigator Patrick Ferryn. Commenting  on  the
book  Night  Siege  by the late  Dr.  Allen  Hynek,  investigator
Phillip  Imbrogno  and reporter Bob Pratt, which  documented  the
Hudson  Valley  cases,  Ferryn wrote that "changing  only  a  few
words,  exactly the same could be written to give an  account  of
the position of affairs here! [in Belgium] The same goes for many
entire pages and excerpts elsewhere in the book."
  While  nobody doubts that people have been seeing something  in
both  upstate New York and Wallonia in Belgium, the big  question
is  whether  these sightings are caused by true UFOs or  by  some
kind  of  new revolutionary secret  military  aircraft.  Foremost
among  the  proponents  of  the  secret  weapon  theory  is  Tony
Gonsalves,  a researcher from East Providence, Rhode Island,  who
served  as a jet mechanic and plane captain for the U.S. Navy  on
three aircraft carriers between 1959 and 1963.
  In  a  number  of papers written during  the  last  two  years,
Gonsalves  has developed his theory of "The American made UFO"  -
that the boomerangs of Westchester and Duchess counties, as  well
as the triangular UFOs of Belgium, Virginia and Puerto Rico,  are
actually  a  modified covert version of the B-2  Stealth  Bomber.
Gonsalves  believes this craft has been fully  operational  since
the early 80s, while the official B-2 bomber that was unveiled in
1988  is a "decoy" to deceive the American public, the media  and
the  Congress.  Furthermore,  Tony  Gonsalves  and  a  few  other
ufologists   speculate  that  this  secret  aircraft   may   even
incorporate  some  alien  technology obtained  from  UFO  crashes
decades ago.
  Gonsalves' theory seemed to gain some credibility when Aviation
Week & Space Technology magazine reported in its October 1,  1990
edition that, "large, triangular wing-Shaped aircraft" are indeed
being tested out of the Nellis Air Force range in Nevada and  the
Tehachapi  Mountains  near Edwards AFB in  California.  The  well
known aerospace magazine mentioned several sightings by engineers
of "triangular-shaped aircraft, " possibly prototypes for the  A-
12,  the  Navy's  new Stealth attack plane, and  one  or  several
versions for reconnaissance aircraft cloaked under the top secret
code  of  Aurora, to replace the old Lockheed  SR-71  "Blackbird"
which was recently mothballed. Aviation Week (sometimes  referred
by the nickname of "Aviation Leak") also quoted Air Force sources
who "acknowledged that diamond and triangular-shaped vehicles are
'the  trend  now,'" as well as unconfirmed reports that  some  of
these aircraft "were designed to operate at speeds around Mach 10
or higher."
  Because  he  worked  for  over 30 years  as  senior  editor  of
Aviation Week, where he is still a contributing editor, we sought
the  opinion  of  well known UFO debunker  Phillip  Klass  as  to
whether there could be any validity to explain the Hudson  Valley
and  Belgian  flaps  with Secret military  aircraft,  Stealth  or
otherwise.  "In  my  opinion  the  answer  is  absolutely   not,"
responded  Klass,  adding  that  only  those  sightings  "in  the
vicinity  of Nellis Air Force Base" in Nevada could be caused  by
military  aircraft  tests. "If there were a  secret  airplane,  "
continued Klass, "for goodness' sake, the last place in the world
you'd want to fly it is in Duchess County, where people have been
alerted to look for objects."
  Although  they  certainly disagree on the final  cause  of  the
sightings,  Klass  and  Phillip  Imbrogno  seem  to  be  in  full
agreement  in their rejection of Tony Gonsalves' Stealth  theory.
"l  can't  see the government testing a top secret device  in  an
area like this, " said Imbrogno. "Number one, what if they have a
problem,  what  if they crash?" Imbrogno said he  had  considered
this  possibility  when  he  first  looked  into  the   boomerang
sightings,  but  that "I am convinced right now that  the  Hudson
Valley UFO is not an aircraft, Stealth or otherwise. Number  two,
I  am  not totally convinced that it's  from  outerspace.  Number
three, I don't know what the hell it is."
   Meanwhile, sightings continue to pile up in Europe. The latest
case  before we go to press was reported in early November,  when
"mystery shapes in the sky, variously described as orange  balls,
triangles and points of light," were reported in France, Belgium,
Germany,  Switzerland and Italy, according to a  newswire  report
from  the Reuter's news agency. Police phone lines  were  flooded
across  the  continent  with  calls  about  unidentified   flying
objects.  Experts in Munich speculated the sightings  could  have
been  triggered  by the explosion of a meteorite.  However,  this
explanation  could  hardly  satisfy  the  familiar  sightings  in
Belgium,  where  "dozens of people reported a  triangular  object
with   three  lights  flying  slowly  and  soundlessly   to   the
southwest," according to the Reuter report.
  The Belgian Air Force was studying once again the case, and  so
was France's Service for the Investigation of Re-entry  Phenomena
(SEPRA), which is attached to the French National Space Agency in
Toulouse  and was formerly known as GEPAN. One Air  France  pilot
told  a  radio  interviewer: "We were on a  flight  to  Barcelona
(Spain) at about 33,000 feet at about 7 pm when we first saw  the
shape. It couldn't have been a satellite because it was there for
three or four minutes."
  If the sightings in Belgium and elsewhere turn out to be secret
aircraft,  the mystery will become pubic sooner or later, but  if
they are indeed caused by true UFOs, then we may be debating them
for  a long time to come. Perhaps a summary of the whole  Belgian
flap  and  its  meaning was best expressed  by  SOBEPS  Scientist
August  Meessen, Professor of Physics at the Catholic  University
at  Louvain. He told the French magazine Paris Match: "There  are
too  many independent eyewitness reports to ignore. Too  many  of
the  reports describe coherent physical effects, and there is  an
agreement among the accounts concerning what was observed. If all
of these witnesses are lying, then it is a mental disease of such
novelty and proportions that it must be studied."

<<Concluded in next message..>>

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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (sm)
Subject: Belgium Information (Conclusion)
Date: 18 Apr 91 01:16:00 GMT

<<<<Continued from previous message>>>>

  "But  of  course,"  continued Prof. Meessen,  "there  are  also
physical effects. The Air Force report allows us to approach  the
problem in a rational and scientific way. The simplest hypothesis
is that the reports are caused by extraterrestrial visitors,  but
that  hypothesis carries with it other problems. We are not in  a
rush  to form a conclusion, but continue to study  the  mystery."
The last word about the UFO flap that has brought down "The Wall"
of UFO Silence has yet to be uttered.


     ABOUT THE AUTHOR Chilean-American journalist Antonio Huneeus
was  born in New York in 1950, the son of a Chilean diplomat  and
United  States  official. After studying French at  the  Sarbonne
University  in Paris in 1970 and journalism at the University  of
Chile,  he  worked  as science editor for a  weekly  magazine  in
Santiago  and  was  a contributor for  a  number  of  newspapers.
Huneeus'  UFO investigation began in 1977 with the bizarre  "time
warp"  incident  of Chilean Army Corporal Armando  Valdes.  Since
then,  he  has written hundreds of articles on UFOs  and  related
subjects for such publications as Omni, UFO Report, and the MUFON
JOURNAL  in the U.S., as well as for magazines  throughout  South
America  and Europe. Last year he won the UFOlogists of the  Year
Award  given by the National UFO Conference. The photographs  and
art  that  accompany  this  article are  part  of  Antonio's  UFO
CHRONICLE  lecture and slide presentation. Readers may reach  the
author directly at Box 1989, New York, NY 10159.

END
PARANET FILE NAME: BELGIUM1.UFO

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********To have your comments in the next issue, send electronic mail to********
                      'infopara' at the following address:

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******************The**End**of**Info-ParaNet**Newsletter************************


                Info-ParaNet Newsletters   Volume I  Number 395

                            Friday, April 26th 1991

Today's Topics:

                                 Re: Rick Redux
                                     (none)
                                   Bill Cooper
                   Re: Question from a UFOlogy Sig User - Help
                               Re: HUMAN VISITORS
                               Re: Ivan Sanderson
                             Our humanoid 'visitors'
                              Incident-Indian Point
                          Re: Statements of acceptance
                               Re:  Human visitors
                                     (none)
                            Re: Extraordinary claims
                            Re: Statements of accepta
                                 Csicop Members
                                Phoenix journals
                                       OBE
                   Re: Question from a UFOlogy Sig User - Help
                                  Re: Redlight

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (John Cockrell)
Subject: Re: Rick Redux
Date: 18 Apr 91 15:01:00 GMT

Well, jeez, axe to grind? I dunno about that one. I was simply
exasperated at the strains everyone on this thread was taking to
  "politely" flame each other. Not to stir up aggression, but I thought
that the main philosophy of the BBS was to freely express opinions,
popular or not. In this area, where belief is called upon strongly to
support any opinion (i.e. ufo's, etc) it is extremely easy for
unscrupulous individuals (oops, polite flame) to take advantage of that
belief to th own ends, but that's all common knowledge now. I guess my
point is taking into account openmindedness, and respect for other
peoples integrity, and politeness, and so on and so forth, there is
STILL a point where you just have to say, "That's Bullsh*t, and this
guy is a real rats' *ss for expecting us, and getting some of us, to
believe what he's saying". I think it's better to come right out and
say it than hemhaw around trying not to break the rules of the bbs.
Sure it's not a good idea to go around slamming people with no reason,
but in the context of a frenzied, complex discussion as this thread has
been, the reasons for stating personal opinions have valid purpose.
                                        Just Wonderin',
                                                J.C.
--
John Cockrell - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



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From: ncar!ecn.purdue.edu!lush
Subject: (none)
Date: 20 Apr 91 19:23:25 GMT

From: [e-mail] (Gregory B Lush)


?   When you relieze that the universe is expanding in all
?   directions at the speed of light, and has been for all of time.  It
?   is immpossible to even estimate how long that is.

I've heard people say that the universe is expanding like this before.
What is the evidence that is cited to justify this statement?  I'm
not saying that it is wrong; I just don't know what it is based on.

Greg ([e-mail])





--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Steve Rose)
Subject: Bill Cooper
Date: 18 Apr 91 06:45:58 GMT


 cw> are knows as Skeptics)  Eventually
 cw> people will wise up and relieze that
 cw> there are UFOs, but the question is...
 cw> WHEN?  I can't understand how people
 cw> can believe that we are all alone in the universe.

You, as well as many others, make the same mistake in the statement above.  You
assume since a person states there are no manned UFOs, they believe there can
be no life elsewhere.  I...as one of those 'Show me' types...believe nothing of
the sort.  I am the first to foster a belief in life forms elsewhere, as many
others do.  I just have NOT been convinced of their physical PRESENSE here on
this planet, in this present day time frame.

I could turn your statement around and say, "Flashing red lights do not an
alien aircraft make!"  Show me something more convincing and I'll sing with the
rest of them...here in Washington and elsewhere.  :-)
--
Steve Rose - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Linda Bird)
Subject: Re: Question from a UFOlogy Sig User - Help
Date: 21 Apr 91 05:35:00 GMT

Egads!  Sounds like William Cooper.....
--
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Linda Bird)
Subject: Re: HUMAN VISITORS
Date: 21 Apr 91 05:47:00 GMT

Because they/it are curious?  I can think of no better reason...
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From: [e-mail] (Linda Bird)
Subject: Re: Ivan Sanderson
Date: 21 Apr 91 06:03:00 GMT

Clark,
    I remember reading the one about the farmer.  His voice, crying for
help, was heard for some time from the spot where he disappeared.
Kinda gives ya the willies...
                              Linda
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Subject: Our humanoid 'visitors'
Date: 21 Apr 91 07:59:00 GMT


 >      P.S. Another widespread assumption also needs to be
 > challenged: There is
 > no reason to assume that individual 'greys' are inherently
 > (i.e., genetically)
 > brighter than individual human beings.  Remember, Cortes
 > wasn't necessarily
 > Montezuma's intellectual superior, merely the product of a
 > culture that had
 > evolved a vastly more complex technology...

Hello Scott, and thanks for your interesting message.

I think your postscript may make the key point in my argument: Have
you read any of Vallee's books?  You might be particularly
interested in "Passport to Magonia" and "Dimensions".

Montezuma may well have been Cortes' intellectual/spiritual/moral
equal.  He was certainly the Spaniard's military superior, too.
The combined might of his empire could easily have swept away the
Spaniards lock, stock & arquebus.  But instead of resisting or
questioning the motives of the Conquistadores, the Aztecs admitted
the fox into the henhouse because they were expecting something
that looked like the fox. Six months of rampant smallpox and the
complete spiritual collapse of Aztec society did the rest.

Which makes your analogy * especially * appropriate.  Are we any
different at all from the ill-starred Aztecs?  No, we are cut from
exactly the same cloth.

Our expectations of intelligent aliens, will govern our
attitudes toward them if/when they show themselves.  Actually, I
take the contrary view: Whatever our expectations of these
creatures may be, that MUST be what these creatures want us to
perceive them to be.

As a result, they may not be aliens at all.  All we really know is
that they act the way we expect spacefarers to act (coming here in
spaceships, then piling out with shovels and digging holes???
Beside highways?  In parks??? Conducting random gynecological
examinations??)

Who knows, they may be leprechauns.  Or sprites.  Or fawns, trolls,
d'genii, kami, angels, sylphs, demons of Beelzebub's legions, or
who knows what else.  They may always have been here.  They may be
inextricably linked to us -- our counterparts in a parallel
universe, perhaps?  Or future beings keeping events on track
throughout the holographic universe?  And conversely, we may be
inextricably linked to them.

On the other hand, they could be smelly, stupid, shaggy cannibals that
eat cow's lips (when they can't get hold of a hitchhiker) and wash
their snacks down with beakers of ammonia.  They just appear to be
something different, because it serves their purpose.  Or they may
appear to be light-years ahead of us because they are terribly
vulnerable to us in ways we can't imagine ... because we think we're
inferior.

Get my drift?  I'll stop with the syllogisms.  It's good to have an
anthropologist on the net, and if you've read the books I mentioned
above I hope we can get a discussion going about them.

Best,
  Clark


--
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Don Ecker)
Subject: Incident-Indian Point
Date: 21 Apr 91 07:02:00 GMT

In one of the most dramatic events to occur in recent UFO history,
is still today one of the most covered up and least understood
event on record. We have all heard of the Hudson Valley UFO events,
but how many people know that the Indian Point Nuclear Reactor was
also involved?  Well Ok, if you are a regular ParaNet member, you
do know. But the point is, most people do not know that this
happened, and is STILL ongoing. Phil Imbrogno was one of the
investigators to these events, and was also co-author with J. A.
Hynek in the opus that relays what went on in the Hudson Valley.
( NIGHT SIEGE - Ballantine Books Copyright 1987 )
Imbrogno was extensively interviewed by UFO Magazine for the
following story. Turn to ASK UFO and read about the "Incident at
Indian Point."

Don Ecker

--
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: ncar!eniac.seas.upenn.edu!snelson
Subject: Re: Statements of acceptance
Date: 25 Apr 91 19:15:37 GMT

From: [e-mail] (Steven Nelson)

In _Report on Communion_ by Ed Conroy, Phil Klass stated specifically the proof
that he wanted. What follows is reproduced without permission, but it's short.

KLASS:...I'm sometimes asked, 'Well, haven't you found a case that you could
not explain?' To give a short, meaningful response to that, in one of my books
and in many of my lectures, I have offered that if, at any time that I'm alive,
an honest-to-goodness extraterrestrial craft should land anywhere in the world,
or crash, or a physical artifact should be found and examined by the National
Academy of Sciences and they were to say this thing could not be made on this
earth-- anything that would irrevocably, unquestionably prove beyond all
doubt that we've had at least one extraterrestrial visitor-- then I would say
to those who've bought my book, 'Mail your book back to me, and... I will
refund the full purchase price...'

 Obviously, Klass is relying on others' scientific expertise to make his
decision, but as an editor of Aviation Week magazine, relying on scientific
reports made by mainstream organizations is part of his job.
 So long as there is an alternative to claiming that we are being
visited by other planets, Klass will take it.

-Steve Nelson




--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: ncar!neptune.convex.com!swarren
Subject: Re:  Human visitors
Date: 25 Apr 91 21:31:45 GMT

From: [e-mail] (Steve Warren)

+From: [e-mail] (Jim Greenen)
+Subject: Human visitors
+Date: 17 Apr 91 13:38:00 GMT
                           [...]
+other solar system. If you read the great book, it mentions the
+angels came down and mated with man. We can assume that a sprirt
+can't mate with a mortal, then who were the angels they mention?
                           [...]
Well, if you're going to take the authority of the Bible (by agreeing
that angels came down and mated with human women) then obviously the beings
referred to in the Bible as angels *are* in fact capable of mating with
humans, according to the Bible.  The Bible refers to angels as spirits, but
it never implies that *all they are* is spirits.  They are also described as
having corporal bodies, although their spirits do not always inhabit their
bodies, according to the Bible.  I can get specific references if you are
interested.
            _.
--Steve   ._||__      DISCLAIMER: All opinions are my own.
  Warren   v\ *|     ----------------------------------------------
             V       {uunet,sun}!convex!swarren; [e-mail]




--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: ncar!ecn.purdue.edu!lush
Subject: (none)
Date: 25 Apr 91 21:35:53 GMT

From: [e-mail] (Gregory B Lush)

?
?  From: [e-mail] (John Hicks)
?  Subject: Again?
?  Date: 17 Apr 91 19:25:00 GMT
?
?
?   > Hmmmm...isn't it about the time for them to gear up for the
?   > upcoming tourist season?  This seems to becoming a springtime
?   > ritual.
?
?    Good point. Seems like something happens early every April.
?
?                                             jbh

Even if the local powers that be are taking advantage of the
media hype to attract tourist dollars, that does not make the
events less real.  It just makes the local government smart.

Greg  ([e-mail])





--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Rick Moen)
Subject: Re: Extraordinary claims
Date: 21 Apr 91 19:51:59 GMT

John --

I note your 160-line posting on scientific method in the INFO.PARANET
echo-conference.  I will consider discussing this topic with you in some
more appropriate forum, such as FidoNet science or a Usenet sci.*
newsgroup, if you like, and will gladly overlook the various smear
tactics, and ongoing use of such verbiage as "whining" and "platitudes",
and assume _tentatively_ (as you correctly but needlessly note is the
nature of all scientific knowledge) that you seek a substantive
discussion.

'Won't hold my breath, though.

Best Regards,
Rick M.

--
Rick Moen - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Rick Moen)
Subject: Re: Statements of accepta
Date: 21 Apr 91 20:10:23 GMT

John --

I note what seem to be your objections to my posting to Jim Speiser.

I see you are still trying to imply something about my allegedly
deleting download files or listing them classified according to
credibility, something I never said I did, and have in fact specifically
said I don't.

I note that you deny attempting a two-year smear campaign on various
echoes, preferring a more agreeable characterisation.  Whatever.  I
think you've made your intent abundantly clear.

I note that you indicate comprehension that I am _not_ a member of
CSICOP, but serve as a member of its Electronic Communications
Subcommittee, and do not purport to speak for it.  Good.  That's
progress of a sort.

I note that you ask if it would be appropriate for you to ask if I
support CSICOP's views.  I don't know if the question is appropriate,
but I will consider the question to be asked.  Before I could answer it,
we would have to establish what CSICOP's views _are_, and then you could
ask me how I felt about each of those views.  Perhaps it would be easier
if you were to just formulate a "view" and ask my opinion.  However, I
don't really see the point, much less why this should interest
INFO.PARANET.

Lastly, I note that you seem to second my suggestion of contacting
UFOlogists to ask them what evidence would suffice to convince them of
the ET hypothesis.  How nice.

Best Regards,
Rick M.

--
Rick Moen - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Rick Moen)
Subject: Csicop Members
Date: 21 Apr 91 20:39:39 GMT

John T's latest missive brings up a matter I've been meaning to ask
someone about:  Basically everyone with at least a passing aquaintance
with CSICOP knows that it's a _committee_, which puts out a quarterly
journal, and that the committee is the only actual CSICOP _membership_;
that the Fellows, Scientific and Technical Consultants, and subcommittee
chairs listed in "Skeptical Inquirer" are not "members" (much less are
the unnamed _other_ subcommittee members).  Occasionally, some persons
disregard this fact for rhetorical reasons, but we can ignore them.

The committee itself is technically referred to by CSICOP employees as
the "Executive Council" or "Executive Committee" (a fact _not_ generally
known).  What I don't know is its current membership.  Obviously, it
includes Paul Kurtz (chairman, humanist high-muckity-muck, and prof. of
philosophy at SUNY Buffalo).  I would guess the rest to be as follows:
James Alcock (prof. of psychology, York U.), Kendrick Frazier (editor),
Phil Klass, Randi, and Ray Hyman (prof. of psychology, U. of Oregon).
Possibly CSICOP's Executive Director also serves -- the fourth and
current one being Barry Karr.

Do you know anything about this?  It's curious that the list is never
published in their journal.

Best Regards,
Rick M.

--
Rick Moen - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Bryce Eckstein)
Subject: Phoenix journals
Date: 17 Apr 91 16:36:00 GMT

Hello Gregory!

In a msg of <08 Apr 91>, Gregory B Lush writes to All:

 GBL> Well, I broke down.  Here is an excerpt from one of the Phoenix
 GBL> Journals.  It is included in both 'Space-Gate--The Veil Removed'
 GBL> and in 'Spiral to Economic Disaster' from America West Publ.

Can you give me any information as to where I can obtain a copy of the Phoenix
Journals?

Thanks.

Bryce

--
Bryce Eckstein - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (James Nugent)
Subject: OBE
Date: 22 Apr 91 22:32:00 GMT

Well I have read multitudes of info. on OBE's and so far nothing written has
helped me to experience one purposely.  I have heard a lot about a 'silver
strand' that connects the astral body with the physical.  It existes in much
literature and in many documented(not proved) cases.  As for
'higher-dimentional life forms that use machines to capture astral bodys' I
have so far only heard it from you.  If you are refering to L. Ron Hubbard
maybe he should just stay with science-fiction.  The idea could make one
hell of book though.

I believe I experienced an OBE once but haven't been able to duplicate it.
You may want to talk with someone who has them if you want to kind-of get
an understanding of what is involved.

There are supposidly many ways to go out-of-body.  I'll leave it up to you
to find one as none have worked for me.

--
James Nugent - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Subject: Re: Question from a UFOlogy Sig User - Help
Date: 22 Apr 91 13:41:00 GMT


 > Egads!  Sounds like William Cooper.....

Oh my Goodness!  Is THAT how Mr. Cooper sounds?!  Heavens to Betsy!!

I shall sue him, just as soon as I get my flat tires fixed.

Cheers,
  Otis



PS -- hehehehhehe


--
Clark Matthews - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Redlight
Date: 26 Apr 91 20:54:47 GMT

From: [e-mail] (Douglas Dever)

Don't you hate those pesky landing lights, and anti-collision lights
on an airplane... Either that, or John might be right... tourist season.
This is one sighting which for some reason I really doubt.  Just like when
the crest moon was visible in the middle of the afternoon a few days ago
and i kid at school said, 'Look up there... it's a UFO.'  People need to
look into something before they scream 'Quick, get a scientist, call the
police, better yet, call the paper! IT'S A UFO!!!'


--
__ Douglas A. Dever __  ! INTERNET: [e-mail]
****** IRC CHAT ******  !           [e-mail] (soon I-net)
****** Niltsiar ******  ! BITNET:   ak842%cleveland.freenet.edu@cunyvm
I cannot be held responsible for this message since my foot is in my mouth.





********To have your comments in the next issue, send electronic mail to********
                      'infopara' at the following address:

UUCP  {ncar,isis,boulder}!scicom!infopara
DOMAIN  [e-mail]
ADMIN Address [e-mail]
  {ncar,isis,boulder}!scicom!infopara-request

******************The**End**of**Info-ParaNet**Newsletter************************


                Info-ParaNet Newsletters   Volume I  Number 396

                            Monday, April 29th 1991

Today's Topics:

                                     (none)
                                     (none)
                                  The Universe
                                   Bill Cooper
                                       YES
                   Re: Question from a UFOlogy Sig User - Help
                       Pleidians need better calculators!
                           Periodical: Kindred Spirit
                               Re: Csicop Members
                            Re: INCIDENT-INDIAN POINT
                          UFOs in the Hudson Highlands

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: ncar!wam.umd.edu!infinity
Subject: (none)
Date: 27 Apr 91 02:43:16 GMT

From: David Elmore Coleman <[e-mail]>

Re:SERIOS BUSINESS

Pete Porro notes that '[Arthur C. Clarke] does say that there is a question
as to the viability of the events.'

Wait a minute, the guy whom you are debating, who defends Serios,
has just provided information (the second edition of the _World of
Serios_ or whatever) that debunks A.C and you are now saying that
in spite of what hard core reasoning might be in the book, A.C's
point blank mere statement overrides it. You seem to being saying,
'it's not fair that AC could be infallible and not omniscient about
the Serios case.' Have you heard of fillibusters? Skeptical thinkers
have a hard time avoiding doing it.

Further, Pete says,
+It's unreasonable to stick to something that has been proven fraud over
+ and over again, just because of defensive thoughts.

Wait again, o.k, stand in line...
Skeptics make accusations, such as that the gizmo is not a handicap,
but a miracle technodevice. Does this constitute *proving* Serios
bogus 'over and over again.'? No.
 The reason proponents stick to their defenses is because of
the one-time treatment of cases by skeptics. A skeptic looks at a
photograph of a UFO, sees a faint film incongruity running linear
through the UFO image, calls the photo 'the most obvious hoax I
have ever seen' (This is from Klass), and asserts that since the
flaw *could* be a hoax (i.e a model hanging by that linear
incongruity) it *is* a hoax, because which is more likely, a hoax or
a real UFO? This Klass believed. So, the skeptic ceases to consider
the case worthy of investigation. But, along comes Bruce Maccabee
who shows through the simplest of simple reasoning how the line on
the photo *absolutely* could not have been a string (i.e it passed
in front of the UFO and *clearly* off center). Now Klass could *never*
have found this, because he is a very shotty investigator. He considered
the case closed, no matter the other evidence in the case. Well, what if
the aliens landed at a stadium at Gulf Breeze and ABC, NBC, CBS all filmed
it land among the football players. Well, this tells you that no piece of
evidence that *could* be a hoax eliminates any other evidence or concludes
a case to *be* a hoax. Back to the subject: skeptics pull this garbage
and proponents, who have invested more time and money into the case,
and who are *very* afraid of a giant case like this going to waste on
the pile of other cases the believe skeptics have treated poorly, never
will believe a mere accusation of impropriety is itself proof of an
impropriety and thus will look at the details of the case further. As
with all non-paranormal accusations, which you find implied by people
recurrently in the real world, most accusations of incongruity turn out
to be solved in such a way that the defender of the case can absolve his
case easily. I can easily put two *carefully selected* (selected by bias)
facts together to indicate 'suspicion' or "incongruity" about you if I
had a partial knowledge of your life. I could imply you are a malicious
or underhanded person. Thus, accusation is easy. 'Suspicion' should never
be taken, even in the context of EXTRAordinary cases, to be reason to
be incomplete in treating the case.  But, how much money do you want
to put down AC Clarke merely looked into Randi's or Klass's books, found
the clear indications of fraud, so deftly stated out of full context of
the cases they are taken from, and converted it into a session for his show.
Would he ever look to see if Serios & gang, the proponents, washed away
the criticisms of Serios by merely returning the coverage of the case to
the *full* context of the case, or by providing new information on Serios,
or by digging up background information originally thought not to be
important? Skeptics assume that 'demolishing criticism' demolishes a case,
when in reality most all cases (Rendelsham, Gulf Breeze, Roswell, etc)
immediately turn up evidence that refutes the skeptic.

      More galactic thoughts from:
Amicitia Subjugat Omnia    Hweohthte... (Hwe-oath-T)
   ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ----
David E. Coleman    [e-mail]
8125 48th Ave, Apt. 612
College Park, MD 20740    1-(301)-474-7424
   ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ----
Unknowingly, he picked up a whirly blue throwstone with strange hieroglyphics
on the opposite side he didn't see, and he tossed it into the sunlit stream;
A note said he had opened a gate to some place indescribable.
   ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ----




--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: ncar!wam.umd.edu!infinity
Subject: (none)
Date: 27 Apr 91 02:45:49 GMT

From: David Elmore Coleman <[e-mail]>


Pete Porro says, '...it is because each event is independent. I hope to
keep thinking that way also. Each case or event is judged on individual
merits.'

Oh... So, if 25 million people see UFOs, which is the case, then in effect
the strength of the argument that UFOs exist is no greater than the
strength of the strongest of the 25 million cases? Hmmm... I think...
......NOTTTT!!! Try applying your thinking to something like a
nonparanormal issue, and you will look ridiculous. And, the scientific
method does NOT change once you move to the paranormal, although some
of the idiotic assumptions in the 17th century wording of the method,
which is the same as it is today, were based ONLY on the assumption that
nondeterministic/noncausal things do not exist.
 (Spinning off) When the *rest* of the scientific method, the part,
i.e hypothesis is part of the rest, the part that does not depend on such
bad assumptions, has disproven the part that does depend on
assumptions, since it has disproven the assumptions, irregardless
of whether or not you consider the part that depends on the assumptions.
The part that depends on assumptions cannot prove itself, by using its
arbitrary placement in the scientific method to steer the scientific
method away from disproving the part that depends on assumptions.
Chaos, paranormal experimentation (now to rhetoric me on that one, it
is not the point), a new calculation that allows Maxwell's demon,
and the anomaly of awareness covering biological machines that are
made up of nonawarenesses. This list, although perhaps none of the
above are 100 percent proven, is enough that you cannot simply
include arbitrary assumptions in your scientific method until you
conclusively prove that the assumptions are not violated by the list
I just gave.

      More galactic thoughts from:
Amicitia Subjugat Omnia    Hweohthte... (Hwe-oath-T)
   ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ----
David E. Coleman    [e-mail]
8125 48th Ave, Apt. 612
College Park, MD 20740    1-(301)-474-7424
   ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ----
Unknowingly, he picked up a whirly blue throwstone with strange hieroglyphics
on the opposite side he didn't see, and he tossed it into the sunlit stream;
A note said he had opened a gate to some place indescribable.
   ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ----




--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: ncar!cwns2.INS.CWRU.Edu!ak842
Subject: The Universe
Date: 27 Apr 91 17:22:16 GMT

From: [e-mail] (Douglas Dever)


The theory I based my comments about the universe on were from the 'Big Bang
Theory.'  That's where a single atom explodes and everything rushes away
from everything else at the speed of light.  According to many scientists...
everything is still moving farther and farther apart from everything else
so this is the theory that they've been going on.  (Some scientists at least)
So I basically got my informmation from the books I've been reading....

*** Proud Member of The Cleveland Free-Net UFOlogy SIG ***


--
__ Douglas A. Dever __  ! INTERNET: [e-mail]
****** IRC CHAT ******  !           [e-mail] (soon I-net)
****** Niltsiar ******  ! BITNET:   ak842%cleveland.freenet.edu@cunyvm
I cannot be held responsible for this message since my foot is in my mouth.




--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: ncar!cwns1.INS.CWRU.Edu!ak842
Subject: Bill Cooper
Date: 27 Apr 91 18:56:54 GMT

From: [e-mail] (Douglas Dever)


'Flashing red lights don't make an alian spacecraft :-) '
(Or something to that effect)
I never said that they did... I just thought that I've seen enough prove
to believe that the crafts to exsist and are visiting this planed.  My
earlier message made a bad assuption about Skeptics.  Sorry...
As for the flashing red lights... imagine someone like that living near
an airport... 'Hello... yea... there's a UFO going over my house ever 5
or so minutes.... ' :-)

*** Proud Member of The Cleveland Free-Net UFOlogy SIG ***


--
__ Douglas A. Dever __  ! INTERNET: [e-mail]
****** IRC CHAT ******  !           [e-mail] (soon I-net)
****** Niltsiar ******  ! BITNET:   ak842%cleveland.freenet.edu@cunyvm
I cannot be held responsible for this message since my foot is in my mouth.




--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Linda Bird)
Subject: YES
Date: 24 Apr 91 03:21:00 GMT

Robert,
    I have your address, and it will be in the mail in a few days.  The
title is NASA RECONSIDERS FINDINGS:  Martian Pyramids and Humanoid Face
May Hold Clues to Our Earthbound Origins.
    I'll also include a couple of xerox copies of the Face & pyramids.
    Thanks for your interest!
                              Linda
--
Linda Bird - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Linda Bird)
Subject: Re: Question from a UFOlogy Sig User - Help
Date: 24 Apr 91 03:28:00 GMT

Clark!
     Speak of the Devil (W. Cooper)!  He's going to be on our local
KFYI Radio this Saturday night on "The Middle of the Damn Night Show",
starting at 11:00 p.m.   I'll post something about it  (if I'm able to
stay up that late) and if I'm able to beat Jim Speiser to it!  Hehehe!
(Just kidding, Jim...)
               Stay tuned,
                        Linda
--
Linda Bird - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: ncar!anubis.network.com!logajan
Subject: Pleidians need better calculators!
Date: 28 Apr 91 07:28:27 GMT

From: [e-mail] (John Logajan)

RE: The Grey Men Tape
        or
Our space brothers, the Pleidians, need better calculators.

In the excerpt of the Grey Men Tape, uploaded on Paranet by
Gregory B. Lush, either the Pleidian or his spokesman (I'm not
clear on this point) makes an error in a simple calculation.

He was discussing the Federal Reserve's fractional reserve system
in which a bank can loan out 95% of its deposits holding only 5%
in reserve.  The Pleidian correctly points out that some or all of
those loaned out funds can come back into the banking system as
deposits -- but the Pleidian, in taking a $1000 original deposit
example, concludes that the end result would be a total of
$20,229.60 increase in the money supply.  This is wrong, for at a
5% reserve and a $1000 original deposit, the increase in the money
supply would be $20000.00.  Or, 1/.05 * $1000, the inverse of the
reserve requirment times the original deposit.

Or you can do the iteration with a simple Basic program, below.

10 t=1000
20 s=1000
30 r=t*.05
40 t=t-r
50 s=s+t
60 print s
70 goto 30

t = the deposits, r = the reserve requirements, s = the money
supply as it increases with each subsequent deposit.

This program is simple and will run forever as the deposits become
tiny fractions of a penny.  But you will see the value of 's'
converge on $20000.

Note that the original deposit is immediately added to the total
money supply, and so therefore you wouldn't want to add the
reserve again to the money supply or you'd be double counting it.
But if you insist on doing so, change line 50 to:

50 s=s+t+r

You will find now that the total money supply is no longer
$20,000, but $21,000 -- exactly $1000 more (and not the $20,229.60
figure of the Pleidian.)

Purists note:  I ran a slightly more complex version of the
program that took into account that transactions are always
rounded to the nearest penny.  Then the result is $19998.88.  If
you always round down on reserve requirements, then the result is
$20016.63.  If you always round up the reserve requirements you
get $19982.53.  Again none of the results are near the Pleidian's.

   ---------------

A further related theoretical error of the Pleidian is to assert
that the oil money we oil consumers paid the Arabs is coming back
into the banking system and causing a 20:1 inflation (or profit to
the bankers.)  This too is false.  The 20:1 thing happened long ago
and has stabilized.  That is to say, when we pay for gas, we only
transfer money from one bank to another, therefore one bank has
its reserves reduced in exactly the same amount another has it
increased.  (Which assumes human beings keep all monies in time
deposit accounts so as to reach the maximum 20:1.  This certainly
is false as a large hunk of money is in the form of currency, so
the 20:1 ratio is never actually realized.  However, various
factors including consumer withdrawal from banks or consumer
deposits into banks can have a leveraged effect on the money
supply.  So the money supply can vary within the 20:1.)

Ongoing inflation is a result, not of the fractional reserve
system, per se, since it was a one time impulse which converged,
as my Basic program shows, to a certain money supply, given an
initial money supply, but rather the result of government
manipulations which increase the reserves -- i.e. the so called
(and correctly called) 'printing presses.'

The primary beneficiary of inflation is the government itself,
rather than the bankers.  I'm not saying that bankers don't have
favored status in the eyes of the government, but there is no way
they are making a 20:1 profit on deposits (because there is no
mechanism, as I have shown, to allow them to do so.)

The benefit the government gets from inflation is that it is
simply printing up money.  The fact that it smuggles it out
through the fractional reserve banking system is almost
irrelevant.

What has this all to do with UFO's?  I don't know.  I'm just
setting the record straight.


- John Logajan @ Network Systems; 7600 Boone Ave; Brooklyn Park, MN 55428
- [e-mail], 612-424-4888, Fax [phone]




--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: ncar!wam.umd.edu!infinity
Subject: Periodical: Kindred Spirit
Date: 29 Apr 91 09:21:04 GMT

From: David Elmore Coleman <[e-mail]>


Does anybody out there know where I can send to to receive a subscription
to _Kindred Spirit_?

You can reply to me at [e-mail] or [e-mail],
or you can make the address general knowledge, if you know it.
 Thankx.




--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: Re: Csicop Members
Date: 25 Apr 91 05:07:00 GMT

->Obviously, it
->includes Paul Kurtz (chairman, humanist high-muckity-muck,
->and prof. of
->philosophy at SUNY Buffalo).  I would guess the rest to be
->as follows:
->James Alcock (prof. of psychology, York U.), Kendrick
->Frazier (editor),
->Phil Klass, Randi, and Ray Hyman (prof. of psychology, U.
->of Oregon).
->Possibly CSICOP's Executive Director also serves -- the
->fourth and
->current one being Barry Karr.

I used to know the answer to this question, but now I'm just guessing. But I
think you've nailed them all. The only one I'm not real certain of is
Alcock. Oh, and I think I read somewhere that whatsisname from Cal Poly, the
guy that plays with Pterodactyls.....MacReady, I think he was named a couple
of years back, wasn't he?

Jim

--
Jim Speiser - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Robert Mcgowan)
Subject: Re: INCIDENT-INDIAN POINT
Date: 23 Apr 91 22:18:08 GMT

Don,

  Didn't Greenwood and Fawcett write about Indian Point in their book Clear
Intent, I read it some where was that it?
--
Robert Mcgowan - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: ncar!wam.umd.edu!infinity
Subject: UFOs in the Hudson Highlands
Date: 29 Apr 91 14:08:08 GMT

From: David Elmore Coleman <[e-mail]>

Hudson Valley Geology

OK, I have looked for information on the geology/chemistry of
the Westchester/Putnam/Fairfield county region where the
numerous lakes were found where the Boomerang(s) and Triangles
flew in the Hudson Valley UFO mystery. This was all I could
come up with, without looking for geodetic surveys. This
more time-consuming move I will get around to when I have
the time, hopefully soon.

 From 'Roadside Geology of New York,' 1985 (Van Diver)
 Oops, forget to get the author's name, damn it.
     pp.83-4.
  The Hudson Highlands: mostly gneisses, some
   amphibolites. Oldest rocks in New York State,
   formed 1.1-1.3 million years ago. 'This is a
   region of knobby, small, almost conical hills
   lacking any conspicuous alignment, and lots of
   marshy, shallow valleys, small lakes, and large
   man-made reservoirs.'

Well, that's all of it for now -- not much.
      More galactic thoughts from:
Amicitia Subjugat Omnia    Hweohthte... (Hwe-oath-T)
   ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ----
David E. Coleman    [e-mail]
8125 48th Ave, Apt. 612
College Park, MD 20740
   ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ----
Unknowingly, he picked up a whirly blue throwstone with strange hieroglyphics
on the opposite side he didn't see, and he tossed it into the sunlit stream;
A note said he had opened a gate to some place indescribable.
   ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ----






********To have your comments in the next issue, send electronic mail to********
                      'infopara' at the following address:

UUCP  {ncar,isis,boulder}!scicom!infopara
DOMAIN  [e-mail]
ADMIN Address [e-mail]
  {ncar,isis,boulder}!scicom!infopara-request

******************The**End**of**Info-ParaNet**Newsletter************************


                Info-ParaNet Newsletters   Volume I  Number 397

                              Friday, May 3rd 1991

Today's Topics:

                                     (none)
                     Re:  Pleidians need better calculators!
                           Re: Paranet Newsletter 395
                                     (none)
                               Re: Ivan Sanderson
                                   Mars, etc.
                                   Alien alloys
                               Re: Csicop members
                          'UFO Abductions' show on CBS
                            Re: INCIDENT-INDIAN POINT
                               Re: Csicop members
                                   Bill Cooper
                                  New Affiliate
                            Re: Incident-indian Point
                               Re: Ivan Sanderson
                                  Tibetan Music

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: ncar!ecn.purdue.edu!lush
Subject: (none)
Date: 29 Apr 91 23:37:06 GMT

From: [e-mail] (Gregory B Lush)

?
?    Can you give me any information as to where I can
?    obtain a copy of the Phoenix Journals?
?
?    Thanks.
?
?    Bryce Eckstein - via FidoNet node 1:104/422

 The Phoenix Journals are available from

  America West Publishers, Inc.
  P.O. Box 986
  Tehachapi, CA 93581

  Phone: [phone]

 Greg  ([e-mail])





--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: ncar!neptune.convex.com!swarren
Subject: Re:  Pleidians need better calculators!
Date: 30 Apr 91 01:40:23 GMT

From: [e-mail] (Steve Warren)

+From: ncar!anubis.network.com!logajan
+Subject: Pleidians need better calculators!
+Date: 28 Apr 91 07:28:27 GMT
+
+Ongoing inflation is a result, not of the fractional reserve
+system, per se, since it was a one time impulse which converged,
+as my Basic program shows, to a certain money supply, given an
+initial money supply, but rather the result of government
+manipulations which increase the reserves -- i.e. the so called
+(and correctly called) 'printing presses.'

The federal government does not print any money.  They have to buy
their money at face value from the federal reserve.  If they do not have
enough tax revenues to buy the reserve notes they need to run the government,
then they have to issue debt notes to the public in order to get the cash.

+The primary beneficiary of inflation is the government itself,
+rather than the bankers.  I'm not saying that bankers don't have
+favored status in the eyes of the government, but there is no way
+they are making a 20:1 profit on deposits (because there is no
+mechanism, as I have shown, to allow them to do so.)

This is the hilarious misconception that people have.  If the federal
government could just print money, do you think we would have the level of
national dept that we do?  Congress could just order the printers to pull a
few all-nighters, and in short order all the debts would be payed off.  ;^)
For that matter, why would they have ever gotten into debt in the first place,
right?

+The benefit the government gets from inflation is that it is
+simply printing up money.  The fact that it smuggles it out
+through the fractional reserve banking system is almost
+irrelevant.

The Federal government cannot add a single new dollar bill into circulation.
Only the Federal Reserve Board, a private corporation that answers directly to
no government agency, has the authority to print new money.  And they do it at
their own discretion.  The government issues new bonds to buy any new money
that is printed, but the combined pleading of the President and all of
Congress will not get new money printed, if the Reserve is not in the mood to
generate new money.  (When I say 'new money' I am talking about excess money,
above and beyond what already existed in the money supply, not the money that
is printed to replace worn out bills).

It would be difficult to find a sweeter scam than the one that the owners of
the Federal Reserve are benefiting from today.  They are putting the wealth of
America in their back pockets, and they come out looking like our great
benefactors, because they are 'regulating' our money supply for us and keeping
our economy nice and stable.  Gee, thanks, guys.

You are right, though, this doesn't have anything to do with aliens.  ;^)
            _.
--Steve   ._||__      DISCLAIMER: All opinions are my own.
  Warren   v\ *|     ----------------------------------------------
             V       {uunet,sun}!convex!swarren; [e-mail]


--------------------------------------------------------------------



From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Paranet Newsletter 395
Date: 30 Apr 91 20:21:29 GMT

From: [e-mail] (Scott Littleton)

+I think your postscript may make the key point in my argument: Have
+you read any of Vallee's books?  You might be particularly
+interested in 'Passport to Magonia' and "Dimensions".

Dear Clark,

     Even though I'm not quite sure about your argument, I'm very glad to hear
that you find my ideas interesting.  Yes, I have indeed read Vallee's books
(am in the middle of CONFRONTATIONS at the moment) and have a great deal of
respect for his ideas, although I still find the ETH the most efficient
explanation, at least from the standpoint of Occam's Razor--that is, the
Principle of Parsimony.  The probability that other worlds similar to our own
orbit relatively nearby stars is very high indeed, while the presence of
alternate universes, though certainly within the purview of contemporary
physics (at least as I understand it), is much more problematic.  I suggest
that, unless someone comes up with proof positive that the creatures in
question come from another dimension, or whatever, we had best operate on the
assumption that our 'visitors' come from the same universe we inhabit, even
though they've obviously long since figured out how to violate (or bypass)
'Einstein's speed limit' (i.e., the speed of light) and do other "tricks" that
sometimes make them APPEAR to be insubstantial.

     However, I emphatically agree with Vallee's linkage of the ancient images
of the 'little people' and most contemporary perceptions of our so-called
'visitors.'  His insight here was remarkable.  Indeed, the medieval accounts
of visits to 'fairyland' (see Katherine Briggs, et al.) closely parallel
contactee/abductee accounts of alien bases.  That such close-in outposts were
finally abandoned a few centuries ago in favor of heavily concealed,
subterranean (or sub-Antarctic?) complexes as we humans began to evolve a more
secular, technologically sophisticated culture would make good sense.

     Let me add that, without meaning to sound like von Daniken, et al., the
available evidence (mostly mythological) leads me to suspect that the first
batch of alien explorers probably arrived here just before the end of the
Pleistocene, and that they have been systematically observing us ever since.
That one or more different--and perhaps less altruistically
motivated--would-be extraterrestrial 'Conquistadores' turned up several
millennia later also seems probable, as does the hypothesis that they fought
and lost (or at least failed to win decisively) what amounted to a 'colonial
war' with the first-comers for control of the planet.  As I said, the evidence
here is almost exclusively mythological (e.g., the Greek Titanomachyia, the
Old Norse accounts of the war between the Aesir and the Vanir, the Biblical
'Rage in Heaven,' the conflict between Marduk and Tiamat in Babylonian
mythology, the several divine invasions of Ireland, as described in the LEBOR
GABALA, Seth versus Horus in ancient Egyptian mythology, the Aztec and Inca
origin myths, etc., etc.), but it's certainly persuasive.  Some sort of mutual
accomodation seems to have been reached between the several colonial 'powers,'
however, as at least some of the losers (i.e., those that don't resemble the
'Greys') still seem to be involved with us.

     But I've taken up far too much space here.  Sometime in the future I'll
comment on another widespread assumption: that genus Homo (or at least H.
sapiens sapiens) was somehow 'seeded' by our extraterrestrial colonial
masters.  It makes no sense whatsoever in light of what we currently know
about this most crucial phase in hominid evolution.  Again, Occam's Razor. . .
I look forward to further exchanges.

     Cheers,
     Scott





--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: ames!scubed!ncr-sd!ncrwic!donald.WichitaKS.NCR.COM!jsurine
Subject: (none)
Date: 30 Apr 91 22:56:20 GMT

From: donald.WichitaKS.NCR.COM!jsurine

Well, I think all this ranting about scientific method and
who's debunking who isn't helping answer very many questions
about the ufo phenomina. What we need is a helpful guide
for the average person so they can be the best at providing
useful information so we can all answer the questions at hand.

Here's my start at some helpful questions that could be useful
if answered.

You happen to see a UFO and you have your camera with, you
even remeber to take the lense cap off. The next day when
you get the pictures back from the developer they are all
blurry. What should you do for the following night so you get
better pictures?

You happen upon a recently crashed UFO what should you do?

You happen upon a not so recently crashed UFO what should you do?

You meet someone who has seen a UFO how do you get a reliable
account from them?

You are abducted by a UFO and are about to be made to forget
everything how do you insure you can remeber?

How do you keep a low profile with respect to govt disinformation
and UFO harrasment types?

You have a piece of a UFO how should you have it studied?

You find an alien critter cutting up one of your cattle, you happen
to have your trusty rifle handy, what should you do?

You have a dead alien critter what should you do?

You happen to have access to govt UFO info (documents, samples, actual craft)
how do you release this info?

You're an archeoligist (sp?) who is the first to discover that the ancient
Chinese had portable crystal powered walkmans, what should you do?

Well, I got the ball rolling, let's hope this is a more interesting thread
than some of the stuff I've been seeing.




--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Greenen)
Subject: Re: Ivan Sanderson
Date: 24 Apr 91 21:23:00 GMT


 * Replying to a message originally to Clark Matthews
 LB> Clark,
 LB>     I remember reading the one about the farmer.  His
 LB> voice, crying for help, was heard for some time from the
 LB> spot where he disappeared.  Kinda gives ya the willies...
 LB>                               Linda

Linda, wasn't that in the book by Morris K. Jessup "Case of the
UFO". I also remember reading that also but not sure where.
                         88's   ---Jim---
--
Jim Greenen - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: ncar!apple.com!well!ddrasin
Subject: Mars, etc.
Date: 1 May 91 07:36:46 GMT

From: well![e-mail] (Dan Drasin)

+From: [e-mail] (Linda Bird)

+ ' ... The title is NASA RECONSIDERS FINDINGS:  Martian Pyramids and
+ Humanoid Face May Hold Clues to Our Earthbound Origins. I'll also
+ include a couple of xerox copies of the Face & pyramids. Thanks for
+ your interest!'

Linda, what's the context? Is this something you've written? Something
in the current press somewhere?  I'm currently collaborating with Dr.
Mark Carlotto on the next book about the Martian anomalies and am
certainly interested in hearing about anything in print related to the
subject. Thanks.

-------------------

Note to all: By the way, I'll be attending the First World UFO
Congress, at the Hilton in Tucson, between May 3 and 7. I realize that
the organizer, Wendelle Stevens, is not exactly worshipped in the
particular ufological subculture represented by Paranet, but frankly
I'm surprised that an event of this magnitude has received virtually
no notice here -- not even a derisive putdown! Interestingly, most of
the speakers are from overseas, and it looks like a chock-full five-
day schedule reflecting a wide range of information, contact
experiences, etc.

There will also be a large UFO-related expo (UFO Expo West) in LA the
following weekend. Sounds like a bit of a circus, but speakers will
include Edith Fiore, William Bramley, Al Bielek, Budd Hopkins, Linda
Howe, Bruce Maccabee, Stanton Friedman, Vicki Cooper, Don Ecker, Bill
Hamilton and others. It will take place at the Hyatt Hotel at the LA
Intl. Airport, May 11 and 12.


---------------------------------------------------------------------
Dan Drasin
[e-mail]%Apple.Com
---------------------------------------------------------------------


--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: stl-06sima.army.mil!wmartin
Subject:  Alien alloys
Date: 1 May 91 12:11:18 GMT

From: Will Martin <[e-mail]>

Some of the recent discussion mentioned the possibility of an artifact
being examined by scienists and declared to be definitely not of Terran
origin, and that this would meet Klass' definition of 'proof' of alien
visitation. This sort of concept is pretty common in SF and in UFO-
related discussions -- alloys or materials 'not of this earth'. What
I'm wondering is if modern technology has reached a point where it may
be next to impossible to examine some exotic material and truly state
that it is beyond human capability to produce it.

After all, we can produce some pretty wild stuff nowadays. It may not be
economic to produce it in quantity or use it for mundane applications,
but given a modern materials lab and a big budget, are there things
that are theoretically possible that we still cannot make? What would be
a good example of a substance which, if I had a chunk of it, would be
proof of alien contact? (Kryptonite doesn't count! :-)

I think we can ignore the old pulp-sci-fi standbys of new elements
(even if Lazar refers to them :-); what we'd be discussing are alloys
and materials treatments which would take regular everyday elements
and compounds and get vastly superior performance out of them. The
periodic table and the atomic mechanics of elements are pretty well
known, and we're not going to find out the Arcturans make their ships
out of element 33 1/3rd... :-) There may be creatable and even stable
transuranics we don't know of, but they'd be heavy and not the sort of
thing you'd build spacecraft out of.

Stuff we have now would be considered incomprehensible a hundred years
ago, I suppose; what would a materials lab in 1900 make of the parts
found in a modern fighter plane, like the titanium and carbon-fiber and
optical fibers and ceramic coatings and various alloys? Would scientists
of that time, given a pile of broken F-18 parts, have declared they
came from outer space, or would they have been able to determine that
they were of earthly origin and just manufactured with techniques
they could not define?

Regards, Will
[e-mail]




--------------------------------------------------------------------



From: [e-mail] (Rick Moen)
Subject: Re: Csicop members
Date: 26 Apr 91 04:00:38 GMT

> I used to know the answer to this question, but now I'm just guessing.
> But I think you've nailed them all. The only one I'm not real certain
> of is Alcock. Oh, and I think I read somewhere that whatsisname from
> Cal Poly, the guy that plays with Pterodactyls.....MacReady, I think
> he was named a couple of years back, wasn't he?

Beats the heck out of me.  They're not exactly publicising this anywhere
that I know of.  I suspect that appointment to the Executive Council is
some arcane process, like being beatified by the Church.  <grin>

Best Regards,
Rick M.

P.S.:  Need a place to stay near Berkeley, May 3-5?  I might be able to
put you up, if you're coming up for the conference.  Among my house-
guests will be Becky Long, trainee investigator for MUFON and president
of Georgia Skeptics.  You could have some interesting conversations in
our kitchen, methinks.

--
Rick Moen - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: Mike Dobbs <[e-mail]>
Subject: 'UFO Abductions' show on CBS
Date: 2 May 91 23:36:29 GMT

CBS will be airing a show called 'UFO Abductions' on May 17 at 8pm.
It was made as a pilot for a series but I doubt that it will become
one.  Victor & Grais Productions of Venice, CA produced the show.

--------
  Mike Dobbs        /    Internet: [e-mail]




--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: Re: INCIDENT-INDIAN POINT
Date: 25 Apr 91 18:07:00 GMT


 > Don,
 >
 >   Didn't Greenwood and Fawcett write about Indian Point in their book
 > Clear Intent, I read it some where was that it?

More likely in Night Siege, I don't think Indian Point is mentioned in Clear
Intent.

Jim

--
Jim Speiser - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: Re: Csicop members
Date: 27 Apr 91 23:49:00 GMT


 > P.S.:  Need a place to stay near Berkeley, May 3-5?  I might be able to
 > put you up, if you're coming up for the conference.  Among my house-
 > guests will be Becky Long, trainee investigator for MUFON and president
 > of Georgia Skeptics.  You could have some interesting conversations in
 > our kitchen, methinks.

Sorry, won't be making it up there, I just took a job as John Sununu's travel
agent and will be very busy. ;-)


MUFON and the Georgia Skeptics, eh? When she arrives, let me know and we can
at least correspond here for a couple of days.

Thanks for the offer,
      Jim

--
Jim Speiser - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Subject: Bill Cooper
Date: 28 Apr 91 08:06:00 GMT


 > From: [e-mail] (Douglas Dever)
 >
 >
 > 'Flashing red lights don't make an alian spacecraft :-) '
 > (Or something to that effect)
 > I never said that they did... I just thought that I've seen enough prove
 > to believe that the crafts to exsist and are visiting this planed.  My
 > earlier message made a bad assuption about Skeptics.  Sorry...
 > As for the flashing red lights... imagine someone like that living near
 > an airport... 'Hello... yea... there's a UFO going over my house ever 5
 > or so minutes.... ' :-)

Your above statement sounds as if it implies that the craft are from outside
of this planet.  What proof have you seen of this?

Mike

--
Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (sm)
Subject: New Affiliate
Date: 28 Apr 91 08:09:00 GMT

This is to welcome a new ParaNet Affiliate.

ParaNet TAU-DELTA(sm)
Dan Sjolseth
Simi Valley, CA
1-805-583-UFOS (8367)

On behalf of the ParaNet family, WELCOME.  Please introduce yourself and your
interests to the group.

Michael Corbin
Director

--
ParaNet(sm) Information Service - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: ParaNet(sm)[e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Don Ecker)
Subject: Re: Incident-indian Point
Date: 27 Apr 91 09:04:00 GMT

I believe you are refering to "Night Siege" by Hynek,
Imbrogno and Pratt.

Don

--
Don Ecker - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Linda Bird)
Subject: Re: Ivan Sanderson
Date: 28 Apr 91 18:54:00 GMT

Jim:
   You could be right about the book.  I don't know where I spotted
that info about the farmer, only that it "stayed with me."  I'll let
you know if I run across the story again.
            Linda
--
Linda Bird - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: ncar!shemtaia.weeg.uiowa.edu!jrblack
Subject: Tibetan Music
Date: 3 May 91 15:42:12 GMT

From: James Roger Black <[e-mail]>

The Musical Heritage Society has just released a recording of Tibetan
music entitled 'Sacred Music of the Diamond Realm'.  One of the songs
is entitled 'Kha-Dro Ten-Zhug', which is translated as "The Longevity
Dance of the Space Beings'.

Do these guys know something we don't?




********To have your comments in the next issue, send electronic mail to********
                      'infopara' at the following address:

UUCP  {ncar,isis,boulder}!scicom!infopara
DOMAIN  [e-mail]
ADMIN Address [e-mail]
  {ncar,isis,boulder}!scicom!infopara-request

******************The**End**of**Info-ParaNet**Newsletter************************


                Info-ParaNet Newsletters   Volume I  Number 398

                              Monday, May 6th 1991

Today's Topics:

                                 material proof
                            Re: Statements of accepta
                            Re: Extraordinary claims
                               Re: Csicop Members
                               Re: Ivan Sanderson
                                   Re: (NONE)
                            Re: INCIDENT-INDIAN POINT
                                     Re: YES
                        Thos. Townshend Brown Notebooks!
                     T.T. Brown's Notebooks/Wm. Moore Pubs.
                               Re: Ivan Sanderson
                        Mundrabilla Incident (Australia)
                               Continuum Continues
                              Call for Submissions

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Moderator's Note: The submission address is '[e-mail]' not
paramod@scicom.....! 'paramod' is outgoing only and used to catch returns and
not allow them back into the database.
Thanks.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: ncar!UNHH.UNH.EDU!K_MACARTHUR
Subject: material proof
Date: 3 May 91 18:38:07 GMT

From: [e-mail] (Korac MacArthur)


 I think a great example of such proof would be an alloy of known metals
that has a density greater than the sum of its parts, ie compressed on a
molecular level until the electron clouds of the atoms 'touch' tightly. There
are some material science guys that experiment with something called a 'diamond
press' which jams small samples between two diamond tips to pressures calculated
to millions of atmospheres.  They have had some interesting results so far.  An
example is when they crushed carbon.  You'd figure some of it would be converted
to diamond, right?  At those high pressures, the diamond tips were bit into by
the sample of carbon (they didn't touch at the point of effect).  They theorize
that the carbon atoms re-arranged their structure under pressure to something
that has a higher hardness factor than the diamond of the press.   The article
may have been in Sci. American or Science Week.  There have been many strange
effects at 3-5 million atmospheres of pressure.  Normal compounds and elements
exhibit strange changes in index of refraction, hardness, color, etc.  Who
knows what even a few decades advance in this technology will be able to make?
A large chunk of 'superdiamond' or 'collapsed titanium' would be proof enough
to me, as the state of the art (known) can only make guesses, let alone produce
enough of one of these substances to make anything.  You'd be able to identify
these substances as not natural by using x-ray crystallography to measure the
inter-atomic distances in the sample and comparing them to the mundane garden
variety alloy/elements.

 Other possible proof objects: Very high temperature superconductors.
If these existed now (even in secret) it would be hard if not impossible to
keep others from stumbling upon how to make them, as there are dozens of
totally independent research labs, all staffed with excellent scientists.

 A small portable cold-fusion generator.  Maybe Pons and Fleishman had
the right idea, but not enough know how.  'Mr. Fusion' by Ronco, soon available
at your local hardware store ($9999.95).

 A vial of a substance that can be shown to kill cancer cells in a
living lab animal, a total cure.  Unless the major drug companies have been
sitting on it until the economy grows enough to charge up the nose ( a distinct
though remote possibility), this would be nice.

 ....and many, many more, subject to imagination.  Just my opinions
of what may be good proof.  Feel free to object, but do offer other examples.

    Korac MacArthur




--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (John Tender)
Subject: Re: Statements of accepta
Date: 27 Apr 91 19:55:15 GMT


 RM> John --
 RM>
 RM> I note what seem to be your objections to my posting to Jim
 RM> Speiser.

     I assume that you know this is a public forum, and that persons
other than Jim read your posting, and that persons other than Jim can
reply.

 RM> I see you are still trying to imply something about my allegedly
 RM> deleting download files or listing them classified according to
 RM> credibility, something I never said I did, and have in fact
 RM> specifically said I don't.

     Anyone following the discussion will remember it like this: If such
classification is made, it should be made on the basis of explicit
criteria.

 RM>
 RM> I note that you deny attempting a two-year smear campaign on
 RM> various echoes, preferring a more agreeable characterisation.
 RM> Whatever.  I think you've made your intent abundantly clear.

     The funny thing is, that in all those echoes, for all that time, no
one, no moderator or participant, not even you, issued one word of
complaint about my motives or tactics or unfairness towards you.

     I really would like someone who has archived those echoes to let me
know if I can get copies. I would ask you for such evidence, but I have
learned how unproductive that would be.

 RM>
 RM> I note that you indicate comprehension that I am _not_ a member
 RM> of CSICOP, but serve as a member of its Electronic
 RM> Communications Subcommittee, and do not purport to speak for
 RM> it.  Good.  That's progress of a sort.

     I note you no longer mention CSICOP in your signature. Progress
indeed.

 RM>
 RM> I note that you ask if it would be appropriate for you to ask
 RM> if I support CSICOP's views.  I don't know if the question is
 RM> appropriate, but I will consider the question to be asked.
 RM> Before I could answer it, we would have to establish what
 RM> CSICOP's views _are_, and then you could ask me how I felt
 RM> about each of those views.  Perhaps it would be easier if you
 RM> were to just formulate a "view" and ask my opinion.  However, I
 RM> don't really see the point, much less why this should interest
 RM> INFO.PARANET.

     I'm not a member of CSICOP either, not even a non-member member of
a CSICOP sub-committee, so I'm not all too familiar with their current
views. Are there any files available that would yield useful information
in this area?

 RM> Lastly, I note that you seem to second my suggestion of
 RM> contacting UFOlogists to ask them what evidence would suffice
 RM> to convince them of the ET hypothesis.  How nice.

     Here's another idea I am, though again roundaboutly, suggesting:
Have CSICOP issue a CD-ROM with all back issues of the "Inquirer", plus
all books of Klass, Sheaffer, and Oberg (and anyone else who is
associated with CSICOP).

 RM>
 RM> Best Regards,
 RM> Rick M.

     !Toodles!
     JT

 ... from the purlieus of Pittsburgh
--
John Tender - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (John Tender)
Subject: Re: Extraordinary claims
Date: 27 Apr 91 19:53:54 GMT


 RM> John --
 RM>
 RM> I note your 160-line posting on scientific method in the
 RM> INFO.PARANET echo-conference.  I will consider discussing this
 RM> topic with you in some more appropriate forum, such as FidoNet
 RM> science or a Usenet sci.* newsgroup, if you like, and will
 RM> gladly overlook the various smear tactics, and ongoing use of
 RM> such verbiage as "whining" and "platitudes", and assume
 RM> _tentatively_ (as you correctly but needlessly note is the
 RM> nature of all scientific knowledge) that you seek a substantive
 RM> discussion.

     You forgot "crank", "grandstanding", "tiresome smear campaign" and
"sermonize".

     (It's understandable that these slipped your mind; 'you' used them
in reference to 'me'. Oh well, I guess I shouldn't let such
insignificant omissions rain on your self-proclaimed parade of fairness
and open-mindedness).

     Sorry, I no longer participate in those echoes. But, if that's the
only way I can continue to "smear" you, I'll consider getting back to
them. After summer's over, though.


     I note, however, you are unable to address the issues I raised.

     (BTW, congrats on becoming the moderator of this echo. Sorry if the
discussion was out of line. Maybe you can finally pull in the reins on
that Ecker guy who thinks he has your job. (-; )

     !Toodles!
     JT

 ... from the purlieus of Pittsburgh
--
John Tender - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (John Tender)
Subject: Re: Csicop Members
Date: 27 Apr 91 19:57:24 GMT


 RM> John T's latest missive brings up a matter I've been meaning to
 RM> ask someone about:  Basically everyone with at least a passing
 RM> aquaintance with CSICOP knows that it's a _committee_, which
 RM> puts out a quarterly journal, and that the committee is the
 RM> only actual CSICOP _membership_; that the Fellows, Scientific
 RM> and Technical Consultants, and subcommittee chairs listed in
 RM> "Skeptical Inquirer" are not "members" (much less are the
 RM> unnamed _other_ subcommittee members).  Occasionally, some
 RM> persons disregard this fact for rhetorical reasons, but we can
 RM> ignore them.

     Once again, Rick, your claim that I disregarded a fact is without
foundation. Although I surmised CSICOP was a committee since CSICOP is
an acronym for "Committee for the Scientific Investigation of Claims of
the Paranormal", I did not know that members of CSICOP sub-committees:
 1) were not members of CSICOP
 2) would have no knowledge of CSICOP viewpoints
 3) would not support the majority of such viewpoints even if known
 4) would nevertheless use the CSICOP cachet

     Forgive my ignorance, and rest assured that you have enlightened me
on this point.

     !Toodles!
     JT

 ... from the purlieus of Pittsburgh
--
John Tender - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Subject: Re: Ivan Sanderson
Date: 29 Apr 91 09:32:00 GMT


 >    You could be right about the book.  I don't know where I
 > spotted that info about the farmer, only that it "stayed
 > with me."  I'll let you know if I run across the story
 > again.

Hi Linda.  For some reason, I remember Frank Strange in
connection with the vanishing farmer story.  Perhaps from one of
his "Stranger Than.." books?

Best,
  Clark


--
Clark Matthews - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Pete Porro)
Subject: Re: (NONE)
Date: 29 Apr 91 18:47:27 GMT

Interesting message, I printed it and will digest as much as possible. I
think I was generalizing when I spoke of defensive thoughts, when something
has been proved false over and over. For example: The open ends at the poles
(hollow Earth theory) John Cleves Symmes Jr., which has been observed
scientifically to be false. There are still people who wish to believe it.
Arthur C. Clarke doesn't set out to debunk things, he investigates and
observes and then reports his conclusions. Sometimes he says they are
unexplained, sometimes he explains, sometimes he says they were hoaxes.
(you've got to get Discovery Channel and watch this show) Now maybe I am
making an error in judgement when I see a TV show on Amazing Mysterys, and I
judge it to be objective opinions.

When you mention "one time treatment by skeptics" or carefully selected
facts that cast suspicion, I think you are selling doubters short as being so
closed minded that one flaw obviates the thought process. If I have doubts
about something, if I question, if one asks for valid proof, it does not (in
my case) mean it's been thrown out. It does mean that more evidence needs to
be presented in order to make a decision. To be reasonable about this if one
time treatment covered it, I wouldn't be reading messages every day, carrying
UFO and Paranormal echoes, storing numerous megabytes of information, and
hunting at the library on a weekly basis for more information.

Specifically in the case of Serios, I have my doubts. Nice parlor trick is
as far as I'll go on that one right now. If there is evidence contary, I will
be happy to change my mind and adjust current wisdom.

If an alien craft ever landed anywhere and there was some good footage
available, I have to believe it. Mostly what we see in UFO photos to date are
hoaxes or reflections. I know this topic has been covered, but someone else
said, if it's a good photo the debunkers say "It's too good it must be a
fake" and if it's blurry the response is, "Oh, it's just a blurr, nothing can
be seen." (ha ha no way out) I prefer to say if something with reasonable
validity were to be photographed, we'd finally "blow the lid" off the UFO
controversy. I am attempting to retain an open minded view, which means
continue to look at all sectors of an issue.

I agree with you that there are events that have enough validity to warrent
continued investigation. Just because my personal view of Ed's photo's is
that they are nifty tricks, doesn't mean that all of Gulf Breeze is therefore
a nifty trick. It's just as unreasonable to believe in something that has
been reasonable proved to be a very natural event, just because the first
person thought it was paranormal. Somewhere in the process the glass needs to
be seperated from the diamonds. If one sticks to outdated or invalidated
wisdom, mixes it with new evidence, the outcome is abrogated. <GIGO>

Is there a book titled "The World of Serios" or was that for explination?
Any source you can recommend for reading further about his polaroid mysterys.
If you have time read "Night Siege" since the authors avoided making sweeping
generalizations, and stuck to the evidence. It's been reported that they even
left out some questionable material.

What's Rendelsham?

Where is that sunlit stream with the blue stone? I'm still searching for it
myself. 8*)
--
Pete Porro - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Robert Mcgowan)
Subject: Re: INCIDENT-INDIAN POINT
Date: 30 Apr 91 03:27:32 GMT

Don,
   You are right, I have let my UFO studies go for a while and it shows.  I
need to brush up, I'll be following the Echos now again.
That is where I read it, is there any new information since then?
--
Robert Mcgowan - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Robert Mcgowan)
Subject: Re: YES
Date: 30 Apr 91 03:34:27 GMT

Hi Linda,
   I have read the material you sent me and found it quite interesting.  Can
you tell me something about the periodical that that article appeared
in? It will be interesting to see what will happen in 92' when we go back.
What other things have you been studying these days?
--
Robert Mcgowan - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Subject: Thos. Townshend Brown Notebooks!
Date: 1 May 91 11:04:00 GMT

Anyone possessing copies of the William Moore Publications
edition of T.T. Brown's notebooks is encouraged to contact Clark
Matthews at ParaNet Pi 201-451-3063 or at Internet
f816.n107.z1.fidonet.org!Clark.Matthews

Also, note the contents of the following messages re: William
Moore Publications.


+ Originally from the KeelyNet BBS
+ Cross-posted by Clark Matthews


Message 142                                    DATE/TIME: 03/22/91 13:03
>From   : BOB PADDOCK
To     : DAVID BRUNE
Subject: (R) Re: Upload of TESLAPIC.ZIP
Folder : A, "Public Mail"



        For a short time (days?) the Six volume set of T.T.Browns
notebooks where available from W.L.Moore Publications.

        I going by memory here my documentation is else where at the
moment.

        In 1986 Moore was selling the six volume set, which were Xeroxs
copies of Browns hand written (scraled is a better discription)
spiral bound note books.  I ordered a set at a price of about $130 for
the set.

        I received volume one, then a couple of months latter got volume
two, several months latter I got volume four with a note that said the
printer messed up volume three.

        In about Aug. of 1988 I called Moore and asked him what
happened to the other volumes.

        He said [parapharazed] "Dr. Brown was a great scientist, but a
lousy business man.  He double sold the rights to his note books, to me
and an other party [He would not identity the other party]."..."They
believe that this information should be kept confidential and not be
published".

        It seems that this other party was suing to prevent Moore from
publishing any more of the note books.

        In December of 1990 I got a letter similar to the following:

        W.L.Moore Publications Being Reorganized:

        On December 31,1990, as part of a reorganization effort aimed
at providing better and more efficient service, William L. Moore
Publications & Research ceased to exist as a business entity after
eleven years of operation.  Essentially, the very important Roswell
Incident and MJ/12-related research projects, along with a reorganized
portion of the publications operation, has been absorbed by PEREGRINE
COMMUNICATIONS, of which Moore is presently a partner.  Non
MJ-12/Roswell research will be assimilated into the on-going work of
the Fair-Witness Project, which will continue to publish FOCUS, now in
its sixth year, on a quarterly basis.

        For the time being, Peregrine Communications will continue to
use Mr. Moor's Burbank address (which is the same as that of the
Fair-Witness Project), or they may be reached by writing 12226 Victory
Blvd. #207, Norty Holly-wood, CA 91606.  Questions and/or comments are
welcome.

        I contacted them and asked what the deal with the note books
was, and their reply was "That matter is still unresolved".

        So I'm out lots of $$$ and still don't have the complete set.

        The ones that I do have do have a bit of interesting info in
them, but not really as much as I had hoped for.  The do show that Brown
was into may things besides 'stress in dialetrics'...


What was the rummor that you heard?
                   ----------------------------------------


--
Clark Matthews - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Subject: T.T. Brown's Notebooks/Wm. Moore Pubs.
Date: 1 May 91 11:04:00 GMT

Anyone with copies of the William Moore Publications edition(s)
of T.T. Brown's notebooks is encouraged to contact Clark Matthews
at ParaNet Pi 201-451-3063 or on Internet at
f816.n107.z1.fidonet.org!Clark.Matthews

Many thanks!

+ Originally from the KeelyNet BBS
+ Cross-posted by Clark Matthews


Message 151                                    DATE/TIME: 03/22/91 23:05
>From   : DAVID BRUNE
To     : BOB PADDOCK
Subject: (R) Re: Upload of TESLAPIC.ZIP
Folder : A, "Public Mail"

  I have heard of Peregrine Communications, but I can't remeber where I
heard of it.  As for the rumor I heard, I was told that Brown was into
other things as well besides stress diaelectrics.  I've heard that some
type of underground orginization managed to get hold of Brown's notes,
and were planning to publish them through some sort of underground
network.  I have been in touch with a few people I know, that are have
knowledge of this network, but so far nothing has come of it.  Perhaps
someday people will stop being paranoid and begin releasing some, if
not all, of this and other information.  The thing that bothers me is,
that if the government somehow were to get control of this information,
they could release it to the public, but change just enough, so that it
would be absolutely useless.  I hope this doens't happen.  Somewhere,
somebody has the information, all we need to do is find them and
convince them to release it.  Perhaps you should look into possible
getting the notes you have put on the computer, and upload them.  Of
course for security and copyright infringment, use a diffrent name.
But you didn't here that from me.....Dave
                   ----------------------------------------


--
Clark Matthews - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Graham)
Subject: Re: Ivan Sanderson
Date: 1 May 91 00:08:07 GMT

* Message sent by Clark Matthews on 29 Apr 91 to Linda Bird:
 > >    You could be right about the book.  I don't know where I
 > > spotted that info about the farmer, only that it "stayed
 > > with me."  I'll let you know if I run across the story
 > > again.
 >Hi Linda.  For some reason, I remember Frank Strange in
 >connection with the vanishing farmer story.  Perhaps from one of
 >his "Stranger Than.." books?

Pardon the intrusion, but you're right, Clark.

As a child, I remember reading a book called "Stranger Than Truth" (I think),
by Frank Strange.

The story of the disappearing farmer was indeed in that book.  It's one of
those things that has stuck with me all these years.

Regards,
-Jim
--
Jim Graham - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: ncar!cwns4.INS.CWRU.Edu!xx044
Subject: Mundrabilla Incident (Australia)
Date: 6 May 91 01:52:50 GMT

From: [e-mail] (UFOlogy SIG)


I had a request from a Cleveland Free-Net user named David
Coleman concerning the 'Mundrabilla Incident.'  He
claims that an anaylsis was done on the debris left on the
car after the incident, and was wondering the disposition of
the test and of the validly of the case.

Any help would be appreciated.

Best, Dale B. Wedge
      Co-SySop
      UFOlogy Sig

Also, another user left a message pertaining to where
he could write for more info on Big-Foot.  Although we do not
indulge in the discussion of Big-Foot, I did give him the
names of U.AA.P.A. in Cleveland which puts out a tome called,
'Weirdology' and also of a group in Twinsburg, Ohio.  Anyone
having any additional info on this would also be appreciated,
since we do not exclude any types of conversation on the
Sig, although we do try and maintain a discussion on UFO's.






--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Subject: Continuum Continues
Date: 30 Apr 91 23:04:00 GMT




             ***   P a r a N e t   C O N T I N U U M   ***

                            Continues ...



CONTINUUM is back!

ParaNet's newsletter of UFOlogy, online communications, paranormal
studies and research is resuming publication.

An exciting forum for an array of interests -- and a handy resource
for finding:


                  -- Current UFO events and symposia

                     -- Computer bulletin boards

                           -- Study groups

                          -- Contact groups

              -- Researchers and research organizations

                         -- Writers and more.


Complimentary copies of CONTINUUM's premiere issue will be available
to ParaNet participants and other interested parties for the price of
postage.

Thereafter, CONTINUUM will be available by subscription only, mailed
First Class within the U.S.  Please inquire via NetMail for more
information and subscription rates, including overseas rates.

Send mail to:

* ParaNet Alpha 1-303-431-8797 -- address echomail to Michael Corbin at
     9:9/0 (ParaNet) or
     1:104/422 (Fido) or
     [e-mail] (Internet)

* ParaNet Pi 1-201-451-3063 -- address echomail to Clark Matthews at
     9:1012/4 (ParaNet) or
     1:107/816 (FidoNet) or
     f816.n107.z1.fidonet.org!Clark.Matthews (Internet) or
     P.O. Box 3934, Jersey City, NJ  07303-3934

* James Roger Black on InterNet at
     shemtaia.weeg.uiowa.edu!jrblack (Internet)


--
Clark Matthews - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Subject: Call for Submissions
Date: 30 Apr 91 23:10:00 GMT



             ***   P a r a N e t   C O N T I N U U M   ***


               C A L L   F O R   S U B M I S S I O N S



CONTINUUM is back!

ParaNet's newsletter of UFOlogy, research, online communications, and
paranormal studies is resuming publication -- and calling for
submissions.

We are seeking articles of 500 to 3000 words for the premiere issue,
which is scheduled for publication in July 1991.

Publication will be quarterly.  Payment will be in copies.

            *** S U B M I S S I O N   D E A D L I N E  ***

                             May 15, 1991

                         Send submissions to:

                            Clark Matthews
                         The Wrong Number BBS
                            P.O. Box 3934
                     Jersey City, NJ  07303-3934



          *** E D I T O R I A L   S U B M I S S I O N S ***

                           SUBMIT ANYTHING!

We don't PROMISE to publish it, but if your topic interests you as a
UFO buff, we think it's a safe bet that others in our "circle" will
share your interest.

Science fiction.  Science fact.  UFO/paranormal history.  Scaly-eyed
skepticism.  A book review.  A television critique.  An interview.
The results of your last physics experiment.  You name it:  If it
interests you, it will probably interest us and your compeers here.
And it's welcome in CONTINUUM.

Registered copyrighted material will be protected but we do assume a
grant of non-exclusive serial rights from you, the author, upon
submission and before delivery of complimentary copies.  You must
inform us of other, pending rights sales upon submission.
Likewise, if you submit work-in-progress, your unpublished copyright
will be respected but a grant of non-exclusive serial rights is
expected in exchange for editorial and development work and before the
delivery of complimentary copies.  (Heck, we might even improve it!)


                 *** P L A N N E D   T O P I C S ***


            Planned articles in the coming issue include:


                          * The Fatima Enigma

        * Online listening post -- best of the ParaNet echoes

     * The Philadelphia Experiment:  Build It in Your Basement?!

                 * ParaNet -- 5 years and counting...

                            * UFO History

                         * UFO current events

                       * Handy UFO classifieds

                            * And more...



            *** M A G A Z I N E   H I G H L I G H T S ***

                 * Free classified public notices of:

                      -- UFO events and symposia

                     -- Computer bulletin boards

                           -- Study groups

                          -- Contact groups

              -- Researchers and research organizations

                         -- Writers and more.

Maximum ad length 40 words, including address and zip code.  Dues-
based membership organizations and sponsors of symposia may advertise,
but free classified ads cannot offer anything for sale.

Space for free classifieds is limited, and the offer does not apply to
display advertising.  The management reserves the right not to publish
ads.
It's definitely "un-commercial", but we're committed to keeping the
the "bulletin board" concept alive in the UFOlogical community.  So we
want CONTINUUM to be a helpful resource for its readers -- just like
ParaNet is for its users.  What goes around, comes around, in other
words.


Complimentary copies of CONTINUUM's premiere issue will be available
to ParaNet participants and other interested parties for the price of
postage.

Thereafter, CONTINUUM will be available by subscription only, mailed
First Class within the U.S.  Please inquire via NetMail for more
information and subscription rates, including overseas rates.


Best,
 Clark Matthews           Michael Corbin           James Roger Black
 Editorial Director       System Administrator     Contributing Editor


Send netmail to:

* ParaNet Alpha 1-303-431-8797 -- address echomail to Michael Corbin at
     9:9/0 (ParaNet) or
     1:104/422 (Fido) or
     [e-mail] (Internet)

* ParaNet Pi 1-201-451-3063 -- address echomail to Clark Matthews at
     9:1012/4 (ParaNet) or
     1:107/816 (FidoNet) or
     f816.n107.z1.fidonet.org!Clark.Matthews (Internet) or
     P.O. Box 3934, Jersey City, NJ  07303-3934

* James Roger Black on InterNet at
     shemtaia.weeg.uiowa.edu!jrblack (Internet)


--
Clark Matthews - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



********To have your comments in the next issue, send electronic mail to********
                      'infopara' at the following address:

UUCP  {ncar,isis,boulder}!scicom!infopara
DOMAIN  [e-mail]
ADMIN Address [e-mail]
  {ncar,isis,boulder}!scicom!infopara-request

******************The**End**of**Info-ParaNet**Newsletter************************


                Info-ParaNet Newsletters   Volume I  Number 399

                              Monday, May 6th 1991

Today's Topics:

                           Re: Paranet Newsletter 395
                         Abduction Investigation Update
                       Abduction Investigation Update (2)
                       Abduction Investigation Update (3)
                                  Alien Alloys
                            Re: Statements of accepta
                            Re: Extraordinary claims
                               Re: Csicop members
                        Pleidians need better promoters!
                                   Re: (NONE)
                                 Recent studies
                                     Farmer
                         Let me try that sentence again!
                               Re: Ivan Sanderson
                                 Lydia addendum

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Subject: Re: Paranet Newsletter 395
Date: 1 May 91 17:33:00 GMT


 > From: [e-mail] (Scott Littleton)
 >
 >      Even though I'm not quite sure about your argument, I'm very glad
 > to hear
 > that you find my ideas interesting.  Yes, I have indeed read Vallee's
 > books
 > (am in the middle of CONFRONTATIONS at the moment) and have a great deal
 > of
 > respect for his ideas, although I still find the ETH the most efficient
 > explanation, at least from the standpoint of Occam's Razor--that is, the
 > Principle of Parsimony.  The probability that other worlds similar to
 > our own
 > orbit relatively nearby stars is very high indeed, while the presence of
 > alternate universes, though certainly within the purview of contemporary
 > physics (at least as I understand it), is much more problematic.  I
 > suggest
 > that, unless someone comes up with proof positive that the creatures in
 > question come from another dimension, or whatever, we had best operate
 > on the
 > assumption that our 'visitors' come from the same universe we inhabit,
 > even
 > though they've obviously long since figured out how to violate (or
 > bypass)
 > 'Einstein's speed limit' (i.e., the speed of light) and do other
 > "tricks" that
 > sometimes make them APPEAR to be insubstantial.

I have just finished reading Vallee's CONFRONTATIONS, and was very impressed
with his approach to this problem.  However, although an ETH might be favored,
is it not possible that the manipulation of dimensions to make great distances
is highly possible, without necessarily saying that they occupy another
parallel universe?  I agree that if the ETH proves out, it will demonstrate
that they do occupy a physical place in our space and time, yet have command
of a science yet unknown to us.  In your opinion, what is are the
possibilities?

Mike

--
Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (sm)
Subject: Abduction Investigation Update
Date: 2 May 91 01:00:00 GMT

This file was provided by ParaNet(sm) Information Service
and its network of international affiliates.
You may freely distribute this file as long as this header
remains intact.
Date Prepared:  May 1, 1991
Contributed by:  Jim Speiser
============================================================
For further information on ParaNet(sm), contact:
Michael Corbin
ParaNet Information Service
P.O. Box 172
Wheatridge, CO  80034-0172
or
FidoNet 1:104/422
Internet [e-mail]
===========================================================
(C) 1991 ParaNet Information Service.  All Rights Reserved
Unless Copyrighted by Author.  These files may not be
excerpted unless prior arrangements are made with ParaNet.
============================================================

FILE UPDATE: 31 March 1991

Subject Name:   "Lydia" ____ (nee _____; Sometimes goes by maiden name)
Age:            45
Marital Status: Married 8 years. No children.
                Husband "Lance" is an engineer.
Height:         Approx. 6'
Education:      Teaching degrees in English and Geology.
Employment:     Educator, _______ School District.

EXPERIENCE SUMMARY:

This subject approached me in November of 1990, while at a State of
Arizona MUFON Conference. She informed me that she believed herself to
be an abductee, and that she had approached several others in the state
about getting some help, notably Hal Starr and Ed Beibel. She claims she
did not get much satisfaction from them, and was only looking for
someone to listen to her story and figure out what she should do.

Later that week, my wife and I met with Lydia at a Village Inn in Mesa,
and spoke with her for a period of about 2 hours, during which time she
related her various experiences in some detail. She had typed up some
info sheets on each of her major experiences, and had done some crude
renderings of various entities and situations. At the end of the
meeting, I suggested hypnosis and Lydia readily agreed.

Lydia's situation includes several consciously recalled incidents, the most
recent of which took place in April of 1990. This was the first incident in
which she actually recalls seeing entities, and thus it was the one that
triggered her desire for help. Other _consciously recalled_ incidents date
back to age 12 or 13, with several in her mid- to late-20's. It was apparent
to me from our meeting that Lydia's experience also involved a multitude of
buried memories, which seemed to be gnawing at her subconscious mind, and so
hypnosis was recommended both as a cathartic and as a method of uncovering
some elements of possible evidential value.

To date Lydia has had four hypnosis sessions with ______________, a therapy
practitioner in Mesa, AZ. I have attended three of those sessions. The first
session, in December of 1990, concentrated on her April, 1990 experience, of
which she consciously remembered only a brief scene on an "examination" table,
surrounded by several entities. She stated before hypnosis that the scene was
"fuzzy" and "slightly out of focus." The hypnosis session succeeded in
dredging up her recall of the events just prior to the "examination," in which
she recalled seeing a thin shaft of light, like a focused beam, emanating from
an air conditioning vent near the ceiling of her bedroom. During her hypnotic
recall of this segment of the experience, Lydia became quite agitated and
fearful, strongly giving the impression that she was perceiving these events
consciously for the first time.

The most interesting feature of this regression was Lydia's recollection of
reaching for her glasses on the nightstand next to her bed (she is
nearsighted) but being unsuccessful in getting to them before the entities
reached her. This is consistent with her blurred visual recall of subsequent
events, and is notable in that it was only under hypnosis that she realized
she did not have her glasses on.

At this point, Lydia recalled "floating" up through the night sky towards an
object she described as bell-shaped. She then has a hazy memory of seeing
things through a close "mesh", as if a fencing mask had been placed over her
face. Then she recalls waking up to find herself on a smooth-surfaced
examining table. Though somewhat groggy, she was able to see her bare feet,
and the fringe of her nightgown. She also saw an entity closely examining her
thoracic area, so closely that his head was a mere inch or two from her chest
and inches from her face.

Possibly relevant to this occurence is the fact that Lydia reportedly had
undergone radiography a month or two prior to this episode, in which it was
discovered that she had an unusual "spot" on one of her lungs. She describes
it as a honeycomb structure, "like you would see if you took a handful of
straws and pressed them against my lung and spit black ink through them."
Subsequent X-rays, the most recent being in January of 1991, have shown the
spot to be unchanged. Her doctors, she says, are not overly concerned at this
point, but they are mystified as to the nature of the spot. Further
investigation is planned in this area.

Lydia recalls a brief conversation with the entities, who told her they were
doing a study on "the effects of freedom." She recalls thinking that this made
sense, in light of world events, until they told her that they intended to set
a bunch of chickens free in the forest to see how they reacted to their
newfound freedom. She says that it took a couple of seconds for her to realize
that this made no sense at all ("My grandmother had a farm, I know what the
chickens would do, they'd run right back to their cages!") but she attributes
the delay to her somewhat groggy state.

From the beginning, Lydia realized that the entities were not communicating
verbally, but that she was picking up their thoughts. She related this in a
rather surprised tone, and did not use the word "telepathy" or anything
similar. She said that she believed that she could "hit a mental mute button"
and be able to shield them from her thoughts. She thought to herself
(supposedly) that she needed to go to the bathroom. The entity's expression
immediately changed to one that approximated surprise (in her drawing she
depicts it with its mouth rounded in an "O") and in a instant, she was back in
her bedroom.

<Continued in next message.>

--
ParaNet(sm) Information Service - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: ParaNet(sm)[e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (sm)
Subject: Abduction Investigation Update (2)
Date: 2 May 91 01:01:00 GMT

<<Continued from previous message>>

Most of the above incident, from waking up on the examining table, was
recalled consciously prior to hypnosis, but the session served to clarify the
visual images of the entities, and at one point Lydia began crying as she
seemed to fully confront their unpleasant and totally alien appearance.

Overall, the session was obviously a cathartic experience for Lydia, and she
seemed to have had a great weight lifted off her shoulders. She later claimed
to have been able to shed a few pounds, her weight problem having been of great
concern to her in recent years.

The second session, held in December of 1990, succeeded in extracting some
images from her experience at age 12, though it still remains largely shrouded
in the mists of her subconscious mind. The most significant aspect of this
event was Lydia's recollection of being on board a craft and seeing another
human female being carried on board, unconscious, by one of the entities. She
was unable to see the woman's face, but described her as having medium length,
light brown-to-blonde hair.

Much of the rest of this session was devoted to what might be a separate
episode, time frame uncertain, in which Lydia recalls looking out a curved
panel of windows and seeing clouds going by at eye level. In this episode she
recalls an entity standing at a counter, writing. After the session she was
able
to reconstruct three of the unrecognizable symbols she saw on the entity's
paper. These exoglyphs have been forwarded to CUFOS, Dave Jacobs, and Budd
Hopkins for comparison with other exemplars. A password-protected graphic
computer file containing these symbols also exists in the possession of the
director of ParaNet, who has agreed not to release it until further
consultation with other experts.

The third and fourth sessions brought out an even earlier episode, which Lydia
claims had to have occurred around July of 1954, at age 7. None of this
episode was recalled consciously prior to hypnosis.

The subject recounted standing across the street from her own house near
Valdosta, GA, looking up into the daytime sky, and feeling a painful pressure
in the area of her cheekbones, as if someone were "pulling up" on her face.
She seemed to re-experience this pain during both hypnotic sessions, and at
times had to be relieved of it through strong suggestion by _______.

At this point she recalls being "lifted up" into the sky, towards a hovering
disk-shaped craft. She described the sensation of thrusting through the floor
of the craft, where she says she felt like a small "blob" on the floor, like a
jellyfish. She felt she was not in a physical body, and could not feel her
arms, legs, face, etc. Two entities were standing over her. One said, "This is
___-__", exaggerating the syllables. She then felt her arms and legs "pop
out", as if from a central corpus. One of the entities placed a plain white
vestment, like a dress, over her head. She was escorted through the "craft,"
which she described as having curved walls with translucent white panels, not
unlike the devices doctors use to place x-rays on for viewing.

Lydia was led through several rooms, the first of which featured a large pool
containing a highly agitated clear liquid. She said it looked like water, but
she wasn't sure. During the fourth session, she recalled a feeling of cold in
her fingers while in this area. The entity led her through the room rather
quickly, and as they were leaving, Lydia claims to have gotten the impression
of the word, "propulsion" from the entity. She remembers wondering (at age 7)
what the word meant.

In the next room Lydia was asked if she could write her name ("of COURSE I can
write my name!" she responded, in precocious fashion), and proceeded to
oblige. Details of this particular segment have yet to be explored more fully.

There were several more rooms on the tour, including one that contained
several shelves of what appeared to be children's toys. On one shelf were some
small dolls with different types of clothing. Below that were some toys of a
more boyish nature, like toy trucks or motorcycles. Lydia recalls that the
entity seemed to expect her to be excited about the dolls, when in fact she
was never one for playing with dolls as a child. He seemed to register
disappointment when she said something like, "Yes - those are dolls", in an
offhand manner.

After a few more rooms, Lydia's next recollection was of being placed in a
small, dark "closet", and having the distinct feeling of her form changing to
a "cube"-like structure. In the next instant, she was back across the street
from her house.

There are various other elements to Lydia's experiences, including possible
screen memories (she has been spooked at the appearance of a praying mantis at
least twice), psi episodes, and a UFO sighting in March of 1988 while with her
husband. These need to be explored in more depth, both hypnotically and
consciously.

WITNESS BACKGROUND:

The most significant factor in Lydia's background is the fact that she has had
some exposure to the abduction phenomenon prior to her April experience,
through the reading of "Communion" and "Intruders". However, I would judge
this exposure to be at best peripheral and do not feel the UFO subject was a
major interest of hers at any time prior to last year. Certainly by itself it
is no cause for summary dismissal of the case, as it will naturally become
more and more difficult in this day and age to find "virgin" abduction
percipients.

<Concluded in next message..>

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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (sm)
Subject: Abduction Investigation Update (3)
Date: 2 May 91 01:02:00 GMT

<<<Continued from previous message>>>

One of the first questions I asked Lydia regarded her childhood and the
possibility of any abuse, neglect, or sexual trauma. She replied in the
negative, claiming she had had a more or less normal childhood, and came from
a loving family.

Lydia is well-educated and widely read, with a strong interest in ancient
Greco-Roman culture, architecture and mythology. She and her husband maintain
an extensive library that takes up an entire wall of their garage. Titles
included works by Nietzche and Michener, several science fiction anthologies,
spy novels, and science texts on ballistic physics, chemistry, astronomy, and
geology. She has several ancient Greek artifacts in her den, which she shows
off proudly and with not a small sense of wonder at the accomplishments of the
ancients. She has travelled to Greece, and recalls that one of her most deeply
spiritual and introspective moments was sitting among the ruins of the
Parthenon, contemplating the wonders of the past.

Her relationship with her husband Lance is quite interesting. Lance is a
ballistics engineer at McDonnell-Douglas in Mesa, and an avid amateur
astronomer. They have been married 8 years, and he is several years her
senior. He has, from the beginning, indicated his skepticism on the subject
and is fairly reticent to even discuss the matter. However, this does not seem
to have affected their relationship in the slightest. They seem close and
loving, yet mutually independent. Both possess a good sense of humor. And both
are a bundle of ironies. Ever the hard-nosed, skeptical engineer, Lance is yet
a devout Lutheran. And Lydia, with her strange tale of small grey kidnappers,
is an avowed secular humanist. Yet theirs is a relaxed and affable
relationship in which they seem to have long ago come to terms with their
differences and even to have shrugged them off. Lydia occasionally tries to
nudge Lance into looking at her drawings and discussing the matter openly, but
is not overly put off by his hesitancy. "He'll come around some day," she
says.

Lydia and Lance do share an interest in recreational flying, and both have
pilots licenses. It was this mutual interest, in fact, that brought them
together, according to Lydia.

Recently, Lance purchased a subscription to The Skeptical Inquirer, the
quarterly publication of CSICOP. It is not clear whether he was prompted to do
so by a deep-seated discomfort with his wife's claimed experience. Lydia read
the first issue and called it well-written and authoritative. She has often
expressed her distaste for the "woo-woos," the New Age and spiritual side of
the UFO phenomenon. She in fact rejected my first choice for hypnosis
therapist on the basis of his brochure, which actually advertised for
abduction percipients and contained a drawing of a greylien. She thought he
would be "too flaky."

The couple's relationship is interesting to me for another reason. I had heard
that female abductees, especially, tend to be "clingy", and seemingly in
search of ever greater attention to their plight. They seem to attach
themselves to their abduction researcher, hoping for some kind of final
resolution to their trauma. I have often wondered if this longing for
attention is not a personality characteristic that might serve as a causal
basis for the experience itself. Meeting Lydia and Lance has dissuaded me from
this, at least for the moment. While Lydia was at first "desperate" in her
search for someone who would listen, and very plaintive in her request that I
at least give her case a hearing, she does not seem overly "clingy", either
with me OR with her husband. True, she does maintain a strong interest in her
case and in the possibility that she may be helping to advance research in
this area by cooperating fully with my investigation as well as with that of
CUFOS. But she has not been a 3AM caller, to my great relief. And her patience
with her husband is also indicative of an inner confidence and a sense of
independence, perhaps even a pioneering, "I'll-go-it-alone-if-I-have-to"
spirit.

EVALUATION:

My overall impression of her psyche is that she is basically stable, very
personable, with no sign of neurosis. She does have a tendency to speak in a
nervous, staccato, rambling manner, but patience is always rewarded with a
cohesive final story. These impressions are for the most part confirmed by the
results of her MMPI scores, which show her to be well within normal range on
all scales.

FUTURE RESEARCH:

Further hypnotic sessions are planned, in which we hope to extract the details
of the "gaps" in her abduction memories. Research will also be done on the
markings on her lung.

Furthermore, a meeting with the head of the local skeptics organization is
planned. This is in keeping with my belief that reasonable, responsible
skeptics should be brought into the loop, in order to afford them the
opportunity to get their hands dirty on the nitty-gritty of the subject,
something that is surprisingly lacking among skeptics. It is also hoped that
the feedback will provide a much-needed "reality check", and perhaps open up
potential new areas of reseach that may be obscured by a deep-seated
"will-to-believe" on the part of this researcher.

Further updates to this file will be made at least quarterly.

Jim Speiser 31 March 1991

END
PARANET FILE NAME: LYDIA331.TXT

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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Subject: Alien Alloys
Date: 2 May 91 01:06:00 GMT


 > From: Will Martin <[e-mail]>


From what I have heard bantered around the scientific community is that should
we truly receive an alien artifact, we should not be surprised to find that it
is composed of materials common to this Earth.  For example, the one case that
I am familiar with involved an artifact from an alleged crashing or exploded
saucer in South America in the 50s or early 60s.  According to what I have
heard, it was composed of a highly refined magnesium which was apparently
beyond our technology at that time.  However, this does not preclude it from
having an earthly origin.  There is also some information on the Billy Meier
metal, however I am not familiar with the study conducted by the IBM engineer
(his name escapes me), other than he stating that its composition appeared to
be cold-fused materials common to Earth.

Mike

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From: [e-mail] (Rick Moen)
Subject: Re: Statements of accepta
Date: 30 Apr 91 19:29:42 GMT

>      I assume that you know this is a public forum, and that persons
> other than Jim read your posting, and that persons other than Jim can
> reply.

You assume right, although rather pointlessly.

>  RM> I see you are still trying to imply something about my allegedly
>  RM> deleting download files or listing them classified according to
>  RM> credibility, something I never said I did, and have in fact
>  RM> specifically said I don't.
>
>      Anyone following the discussion will remember it like this: If
> such classification is made, it should be made on the basis of
> explicit criteria.

Anyone telling sysops how to run their boards should go hang.  However,
either the fact that I've never made such classifications has not yet
penetrated your consciousness or you are playing a rather over-obvious
innuendo game.  Take your pick.

>  RM> I note that you indicate comprehension that I am _not_ a member
>  RM> of CSICOP, but serve as a member of its Electronic
>  RM> Communications Subcommittee, and do not purport to speak for
>  RM> it.  Good.  That's progress of a sort.
>
>      I note you no longer mention CSICOP in your signature. Progress
> indeed.

Sorry, Charlie.

>      I'm not a member of CSICOP either, not even a non-member member
> of a CSICOP sub-committee, so I'm not all too familiar with their
> current views. Are there any files available that would yield useful
> information in this area?

None known to me.  You might ask them.  What am I, by the way, your
personal research librarian?  Call them up, for heaven's sake; they're
in the 'phone book for Buffalo.

>      Here's another idea I am, though again roundaboutly, suggesting:
> Have CSICOP issue a CD-ROM with all back issues of the "Inquirer",
> plus all books of Klass, Sheaffer, and Oberg (and anyone else who is
> associated with CSICOP).

Try suggesting it to CSICOP.  I believe I gave you their address.

Best Regards,
Rick Moen
Secretary, Bay Area Skeptics
Member, Electronic Communications Subcommittee, CSICOP

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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Rick Moen)
Subject: Re: Extraordinary claims
Date: 30 Apr 91 19:37:55 GMT

As I said, in the increasingly unlikely event that you are interested
in a substantive discussion of the philosophy of science, I will
consider discussing it with you in a more appropriate forum, such as one
of the science-related echoes or newsgroups.

As you are probably aware, most effective moderating is in fact done by
individuals deciding that their own postings belong in a more
appropriate forum, and this is in fact the only way in which on-topic
discussion can be maintained, realistically.

By the way, it was gracious of you to correct my mis-typing of "crank",
but I believe my usage was "sermonise", not "sermonize".

Best Regards to You and Your Flock,
Rick M.

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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Rick Moen)
Subject: Re: Csicop members
Date: 30 Apr 91 19:48:51 GMT

>      Once again, Rick, your claim that I disregarded a fact is without
> foundation. Although I surmised CSICOP was a committee since CSICOP is
> an acronym for "Committee for the Scientific Investigation of Claims
> of the Paranormal", I did not know that members of CSICOP
> sub-committees:  1) were not members of CSICOP
>  2) would have no knowledge of CSICOP viewpoints
>  3) would not support the majority of such viewpoints even if known
>  4) would nevertheless use the CSICOP cachet
>
>      Forgive my ignorance, and rest assured that you have enlightened
> me on this point.

John, I will gladly forgive, even though you specifically claimed that
I was a _member of CSICOP_, apparently even though you plainly had not
bothered to acquaint yourself with the facts first, and even though your
alleged blunder was made as part of the foundation for a personal
attack.  As to the information, you're welcome.

Best Regards,
Rick M.

P.S.:  Your supposition that unstated but hinted-at members of CSICOP
subcommittees have no knowledge of CSICOP "viewpoints" (what _is_ a
"CSICOP viewpoint"?), would not support the majority of those
"viewpoints", and "would nevertheless use the CSICOP cachet" (whatever
that means) is entirely your own.

Best Regards,
Rick Moen
Secretary, Bay Area Skeptics
Member, Electronic Communications Subcommittee, CSICOP

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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Steve Rose)
Subject: Pleidians need better promoters!
Date: 30 Apr 91 09:08:41 GMT

RE: The Grey Men Tape

 nc> What has this all to do with UFO's?  I don't know.  I'm just
 nc> setting the record straight.

UFOs had nothing to do with it almost twenty years ago either, when this same
sillyness about the upcoming One World Monatary Banking and a 'Unified Credit
conspiracy against every decent hard-working blue collar planetary citizen' was
just poor man's science fiction being written on some fanatical group's
typewriter.  The text was geared to point the same accusatory finger at the
world financial and political figures (can somebody say, Rockafeller?) and
well-known banking institutions of that time.  Some suspicious sounding
European names were thrown in to give the material seeming validity.  It also
made large references to the on-going Arab Oil Embargo of '72-'73 as just one
proof of their 'claims.'  Most of the letter was of the same, 'Feds control all
our money and our lives while we are just little pions' rhetoric.

It was xeroxed (or was the proper term mimeographed (sp?)), hand-adorned with
cutesy cryptic Egyptian-looking symbols and advertised in the back of shlockey
magazines. It made the usual mail-order rounds just in time for summer church
and civic activities...groups just right for the pickin'.  Difference is...they
asked for $20.00 donations to 'Fight this evil financial cancer empire!'

Now...this is not to conclusively prove that we are being presented with the
exact same text in ParaNet for the same purpose by this Phoenix Group.  We know
that the current tape transcript is just being passed along by the Lush team
for everyone's perusal and comment.  It is just to point out that yessssss...I
remember seeing all this before...and chuckle to watch it make the rounds under
a different guise, again...this time involving everybody's favorite alien
family, The Greys!  Guess they needed to spruce up the plot a bit, to avoid
rehashing stale doomsday material.

I suppose once this latest adaptation passes over (I think I placed my copy of
the original 1973 text under one of the bird cages...or was it the cat box)...
after a number of years...some other group will be glad to resurrect it for
the next generation to enjoy.  I know we have...twice.  :)

--
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Linda Bird)
Subject: Re: (NONE)
Date: 2 May 91 06:13:01 GMT

Hi, Rendlesham is known as Rendlesham Forest (in England) and the sighting/
experience there is also sometimes called Bentwaters for the name of the Air
Force Base near the Forest.  It's a convincing story, and I recently read about
it in Jenny Randles' book THE UFO CONSPIRACY: THE FIRST 40 YEARS. Jenny devotes
over 10 pages to this case.  The book should be easily found in your public
library.
     Why not give it a try?     Sincerely,
                                             Linda Bird

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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Linda Bird)
Subject: Recent studies
Date: 2 May 91 06:28:21 GMT

Hi Robert,
     Glad you liked the information on the Face of Mars and Pyramids.  The
publication (to which I rec'd a subscription at Christmas) is called FOR THE
PEOPLE, published in Florida.  The owner/publisher is Chuck Harder.  **The
magazine includes information on business, environment, health topics, and just
to make sure he does not leave anyone out <smile> he includes UFO's. I just
found the address:
       Peoples Network, Inc.
       Telford Hotel, 3 River Street
       White Springs, FL   32096               Annual dues:  $15-

All this info is correct as of March 1991 and I expect my next quarterly issue
any day.
       My sister who lives in that hot-bed of UFO activity called Fort Walton
Beach, Florida, sent this subscription to me.  She and her hubby swear by this
Chuck Harder asnd have even driven for 5 hours to go hr him speak in the area.
  I had never heard of him until she sent the subscription to me.  (I'm still
new at the UFO business, having only been jarred into interest a year ago when
I saw the Gulf Breeze book.) As for current reading, I'm ready NIGHT SEIGE: The
Hudson Valley Sightings and find it very readable and full of suspense.  Ooops,
my spelling is starting to go, so will say bye for now.

   So long for now,
                     Linda

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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Linda Bird)
Subject: Farmer
Date: 2 May 91 06:30:57 GMT

I think you are right about the book.  My brain just coughed up recognition of
Frank Stranges's name.  (Pretty dusty in there> coff  coff!)
        All for now,
             Linda

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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Linda Bird)
Subject: Let me try that sentence again!
Date: 2 May 91 06:43:31 GMT


  I was told not to use those keys....

   My sentence was that I was jarred into interest in early April 1990 by a
local radio program (KFYI -a plug for them)  talking about Gulf Breeze.  It
was the first "UFO" book I had bought in a couple of years.  And yes, I know
of the storms raging about Ed Walters.
        Thanks!
                Linda

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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: Re: Ivan Sanderson
Date: 2 May 91 16:18:00 GMT


 >
 > As a child, I remember reading a book called "Stranger Than Truth" (I
 > think),
 > by Frank Strange.
 >
 > The story of the disappearing farmer was indeed in that book.  It's one
 > of
 > those things that has stuck with me all these years.

Guys, lets not confuse Dr. Frank Stranges, the present-day UFO charlatan, with
Frank Edwards, the noted Fortean writer and author of the "Strange" series
(Stranger than Truth, Strange World, Stranger than Science).

Its funny how many in our generation were turned onto this stuff by Edwards.
I, too, remember the David Lang story from Stranger than Science as being my
first nose-dive into the world of the paranormal.

Unfortunately, according to an article by Michael Dennett of the Northwest
Skeptics in the Skeptical Inquirer, the Lang story seems to be apocryphal.
Something about the town mentioned not even existing, and Edwards taking the
story from a newspaper article which was recounting a legend rather than
reporting eyewitness accounts. Edwards was a good chronicler of the UFO
phenomenon, but not much of an in-depth researcher.

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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: Lydia addendum
Date: 2 May 91 16:27:00 GMT


A couple of clarifications on that file are in order. First, by "crude
renderings", I mean not terribly detailed - Lydia is a pretty good sketch
artist, I just couldn't think of a synonym for "lacking in finer details."
Second, the manner of her speech I would describe as "animated, sometimes
rapid-fire." This is especially noticeable when she is attempting to describe
images from her experience. One gets the impression she is bending over
backwards to try to describe the indescribable, using words that don't exist,
and this sometimes causes her to get flustered.

Jim

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                Info-ParaNet Newsletters   Volume I  Number 400

                             Friday, May 10th 1991

Today's Topics:

                           Vallee & the ET Hypothesis
                               Points & Procedures
                                 KRESKIN DEBUNKS
                                  Frank Edwards
                                 CSICOP members
                                Rima Laibow file
                                 Physical Proof
                               Re: Ivan Sanderson
                     Discussion of statements of acceptance
                                Re: Frank Edwards
                                Re: Alien Alloys
                                   Guidelines
                     Answer to your quest. & UFO Conferences
                               Print your answers!
                         alien artifacts/physical traces
                       Getting Smart About Getting Smarts

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Moderator's Note: Please note the admin and submissions addresses at the bottom
of this digest. We have articles coming to the wrong address and this can kill
your address as the source.
-Cyro
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Subject: Vallee & the ET Hypothesis
Date: 4 May 91 01:56:00 GMT

To: oxy.edu!yokatta

 >      However, I emphatically agree with Vallee's linkage of
 > the ancient images
 > of the 'little people' and most contemporary perceptions of
 > our so-called
 > 'visitors.'  His insight here was remarkable.

I think so, too, and I think you've hit the nail on the head by
observing ...

 > As I said, the evidence
 > here is almost exclusively mythological (e.g., the Greek
 > Titanomachyia, the
 > Old Norse accounts of the war between the Aesir and the
 > Vanir, the Biblical
 > 'Rage in Heaven,' the conflict between Marduk and Tiamat in
 > Babylonian
 > mythology, the several divine invasions of Ireland, as
 > described in the LEBOR
 > GABALA, Seth versus Horus in ancient Egyptian mythology,
 > the Aztec and Inca
 > origin myths, etc., etc.), but it's certainly persuasive.
 > Some sort of mutual
 > accomodation seems to have been reached between the several
 > colonial 'powers,'
 > however, as at least some of the losers (i.e., those that
 > don't resemble the
 > 'Greys') still seem to be involved with us.
 >

But one wonders:  What do they *want*, anyway???  If contact has
been prolonged and continuous, it must serve some sort of purpose
for them (and have an impact on us).  I wonder:  what's the
purpose, and what's the impact?

 > comment on another widespread assumption: that genus Homo
 > (or at least H.
 > sapiens sapiens) was somehow 'seeded' by our
 > extraterrestrial colonial
 > masters.  It makes no sense whatsoever in light of what we
 > currently know
 > about this most crucial phase in hominid evolution.  Again,
 > Occam's Razor. . .

Well, yes and no -- the studies of "Lucy" show that Homo Erectus
was virtually identical to us from the neck down.  That's 2-1/2
million years ago!

But the explosion of cranial evolution (and perhaps skills like
speech/toolmaking) in comparatively recent times is very perplexing.
Vallee (rightly) says over and over that applying the ET
hypothesis to explain human evolution and accomplishments demeans
our own genius.  But how a species goes from a 900cc cranium to
at 2000cc cranium in 200,000 years or less is a puzzlement.

 > I look forward to further exchanges.
 >

Me too!

Best,
  Clark


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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Subject: Points & Procedures
Date: 4 May 91 02:42:00 GMT

To: donald.WichitaKS.NCR.COM!jsurine

 > Here's my start at some helpful questions that could be
 > useful
 > if answered.
 >
 > You happen to see a UFO and you have your camera with, you
 > even remeber to take the lense cap off. The next day when
 > you get the pictures back from the developer they are all
 > blurry. What should you do for the following night so you
 > get
 > better pictures?
 >

My theory:  Get as close as possible to the thing and remain
there as long as possible after taking your pictures.  I believe
that UFOs use a localized time-shift as part of their
propulsion/navigation system.  It throws off exposure times and
physically alters the character of light emitted by the objects.
Light can be either highly actinic (causes bad overexposures) or,
more likely, attenuated so it underexposes the emulsion.  It also
seems to have the characteristic of slowing or stopping
electrical discharges and currents, like those in your car's
ignition system, you camera's battery pack & photocells, and your
brain.

Therefore:  Get a 100% mechanical camera -- no electronic
*anything*.  Use fast film and a shutter speed above 1/125.
Never try to use magnetic media like videotape or electronic
recording apparatus.  Get as close as possibly and take as many
pictures as possible at different exposures for as long as
you're there.

Most important, write several notes to yourself about what you're
doing before embarking on your mission:  place the notes in
places where you'll find them, even if you lose all memory of
the project.  In the notes, remind yourself that the project was
very important, that you should ignore any "feelings" you have
that it's not important, that you should get the film developed
immediately and give multiple prints of everything to as many
people as possible.

This procedure should be followed only by those who value their
photos above their life & saftey.

> You happen upon a recently crashed UFO what should you do?
 >

Grab as much as you can carry and get away as fast as possible.
Photograph all artifacts you obtain and share the photos with as
many people as possible.  Divide the artifacts between a number
of individuals and have them store the artifacts in several
different places.  Go to see Dr. Vallee immediately after you tell us
on ParaNet. :-)

*Only then* should you return to the site with other people,
equipped with cameras, geiger counters, EM detectors, etc.

 > You happen upon a not so recently crashed UFO what should
 > you do?
 >
Same procedure as (2), above.

 > You meet someone who has seen a UFO how do you get a
 > reliable
 > account from them?
 >

You don't.  You get their account and check with other witnesses,
radar facilities, police departments, local people, etc.  If
there's independent corroboration, you've probably got a reliable
account.

 > You are abducted by a UFO and are about to be made to
 > forget
 > everything how do you insure you can remeber?
 >

Pocket something.

 > How do you keep a low profile with respect to govt
 > disinformation
 > and UFO harrasment types?
 >

Put yourself under surveillance so you can document what they're
doing.  Bug your own house/car and check the tapes -- be alert
for black-bag jobs.  From pay phones, call your home phone -- see
who answers.  Can they take a message for you???  Be alert for
irregularities in you bank accounts, credit cards, credit
reports, and especially your phone bill -- someone could be
calling from your number (but not your house) and causing no end
of trouble.  Keep a tape recorder in your pocket or purse at all
times and be prepared to use it if your accosted *either at home
or on the street, your job, etc.*  Also, act "unpredictably" if
you're accosted and maybe you'll confuse them.  You'll also
discredit yourself, unfortunately.

 > You have a piece of a UFO how should you have it studied?
 >

Independently by several major universities.  Choose institutions
in Europe -- France and Belgium are probably best.  Dr. Vallee
will suggest several.  Go to see him.  Do not telephone.

 > You find an alien critter cutting up one of your cattle,
 > you happen
 > to have your trusty rifle handy, what should you do?
 >

Accounts vary, but shooting them is a special treat.  Don't
worry, you won't hurt it.

 > You have a dead alien critter what should you do?
 >

Call Sears & order a Lady Kenmore upright freezer right away.
They're on sale this month.  Do not mention the cause of your
freezer order over the phone.  Then photograph the little bugger
and try to get as many tissue samples as you can.  Send the
tissue samples to several different individuals, and have those
individuals keep the samples in several different places. Then
go to see Dr. Vallee.

 > You happen to have access to govt UFO info (documents,
 > samples, actual craft)
 > how do you release this info?
 >

Only after you've made multiple photocopies and given the copies
to several individuals, who will keep them in different places.
It's nice if you can send them to some folks abroad.  Like
foreign lawyers who expect to hear from you from time to time.
Then, approach newspapers.  The London Observer, Paris Match,
the Tribune and Gannett Organizations, The L.A. Times/Newsday
are all good candidates.  I believe that you will be betrayed
immediately (and maybe vanish or something) if you approach the
N.Y. Times, so do be mindful of this.

 > You're an archeoligist (sp?) who is the first to discover
 > that the ancient
 > Chinese had portable crystal powered walkmans, what should
 > you do?
 >

I heard that story.  Any truth to it?

Best,
  Clark


--
Clark Matthews - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (John Wheatrik)
Subject: KRESKIN DEBUNKS
Date: 2 May 91 21:58:42 GMT


   ATLANTIC CITY, N.J. (AP) -- The "Amazing Kreskin" offered to pay $100,000
to
anybody who can prove hypnotism exists.
   The man who bills himself as the world's foremost mentalist said he's
risking a year's salary at Harrah's Casino Hotel because he believes
hypnotism
needs to be debunked.
   "The only thing that's real about hypnotism is the bill people get when
they
go through hypno-therapy," Kreskin said Tuesday. "A child questioned under
hypnotism could be programmed to give false testimony."
   The entertainer said hypnotism is merely the power of suggestion.
   "My subjects respond to me while they are wide awake, totally conscious
and
certainly not in any altered state," Kreskin said. "Who needs all this mumbo
jumbo?"
========
Well now I have heard it all.
--
John Wheatrik - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Subject: Frank Edwards
Date: 3 May 91 02:55:00 GMT


 > Guys, lets not confuse Dr. Frank Stranges, the present-day
 > UFO charlatan, with Frank Edwards, the noted Fortean writer
 > and author of the "Strange" series (Stranger than Truth,
 > Strange World, Stranger than Science).
 >
EEEEEEKKK!!!  I stand corrected, Jim -- I started this in a
message to Linda Bird.  This is what happens when one answers
one's mail at 3:00 a.m.!!!!!

A thousand pardons.

 > Its funny how many in our generation were turned onto this
 > stuff by Edwards. I, too, remember the David Lang story
 > from Stranger than Science as being my first nose-dive into
 > the world of the paranormal.
 >
 > Unfortunately, according to an article by Michael Dennett
 > of the Northwest Skeptics in the Skeptical Inquirer, the
 > Lang story seems to be apocryphal. Something about the town
 > mentioned not even existing, and Edwards taking the story
 > from a newspaper article which was recounting a legend
 > rather than reporting eyewitness accounts. Edwards was a
 > good chronicler of the UFO phenomenon, but not much of an
 > in-depth researcher.
 >

Jim, the town, I believe, was Bloomsbury, N.J., and I understand
that the "legend" is still alive there.

Maybe I'll poke around down there -- it's not too far.

Best,
  Clark


--
Clark Matthews - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: ncar!ASTRO.dnet.ge.com!CARR
Subject: CSICOP members
Date: 7 May 91 17:36:05 GMT

From: Paul Carr <[e-mail]>

I recently received a letter from CSICOP advertising something called
'Skeptical Notes,' which comes out quarterly for $15/year.  The letter
had a sidebar listing the members of CSICOP.  There are all the well
known people: Asimov, Randi, Sagan, Klass, etc., as well as a number of
academics.  I'm not volunteering to type the whole list in (about 30+
people), but it should be clear now that they do publish it.




--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: ncar!ASTRO.dnet.ge.com!CARR
Subject: Rima Laibow file
Date: 7 May 91 17:36:53 GMT

From: Paul Carr <[e-mail]>

The conclusion of Rima Laibow's paper was apparently cut short.  Can we get
the rest of it?



-------------------------------------------------------------------
Moderator's note: Not sure if you mean the digest was short or article
in paranet was never concluded after the first part.
--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: ncar!ASTRO.dnet.ge.com!CARR
Subject: Physical Proof
Date: 7 May 91 19:53:22 GMT

From: Paul Carr <[e-mail]>

On the subject of physical proof of the existence of UFOs:
First, the evidence would have to be in connection with a very well
documented sighting with more than one well qualified witness.  There
are a number of such sightings documented, but I don't know of any
that are associated with available physical evidence.  Some of things
'they' could leave behind that would be convincing:
1) Materials with a strength-to-weight ratio more than an order of magnitude
better
than anything available at present.
2) Materials with radiation shielding not commensurate with their light weight.
3) Micro devices with component densities MORE than an order of magnitude
ahead of the current state of the art.
4) 'Magical' devices - i.e. so advanced that the physical principles of
their operation are unknown.




--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Graham)
Subject: Re: Ivan Sanderson
Date: 3 May 91 15:12:45 GMT

* Message sent by Jim Speiser on 02 May 91 to Jim Graham:
 >Guys, lets not confuse Dr. Frank Stranges, the present-day UFO
 >charlatan, with
 >Frank Edwards, the noted Fortean writer and author of the "Strange"

Oops!  You're right.

Actually, when I wrote that reply, I was torn between mentioning Edwards or
Strange.

If I recall, it was that same book (yes, it was "Stranger Than Science") that
had a story about the leaning ball which seemed to "defy" gravity.

Thanks for the correction, Jim.

-Jim
--
Jim Graham - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: ncar!ASTRO.dnet.ge.com!CARR
Subject: Discussion of statements of acceptance
Date: 8 May 91 13:53:06 GMT

From: Paul Carr <[e-mail]>

This is just a personal opinion...
The vitriolic exchanges between Mr. Moen and Mr. Tender are BORING.
If these two gentleman don't like each other, that is their problem.
I am disappointed that we can't have a mature, focused discussion
about the various statements of acceptance - and these would fall
under more than one category.  Also, the side issue about
classifying files on one's BBS is not germane to this thread at all.

I think that Moen and Tender should feel free to continue their discussion
by private e-mail, but should be kind enough not to make us Paranet
subscribers sort through it.




--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: Re: Frank Edwards
Date: 4 May 91 23:33:00 GMT

In a message to Jim Speiser <05-02-91 19:55> Clark Matthews wrote:

->A thousand pardons.
A thousand don't-sweat-its.

->Jim, the town, I believe, was Bloomsbury, N.J., and I
->understand that the "legend" is still alive there.

That may be a different legend; the one I recall from Edwards' book was near
Gallatin, Tennessee.

But if you know of one nearby you can look into....!

Jim

--
Jim Speiser - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Delton)
Subject: Re: Alien Alloys
Date: 5 May 91 03:04:00 GMT

In regard to Meiers Metal that was supposedly examained by an IBM
engineer - as I recall the "engineer" was a lower level technician
with a penchant for overstatment.  I also seem to recall that after the
piece was analyzed it conveniently was lost - the "engineer" was
carrying it around in his pocket and misplaced it, or some such
nonsense.
--
Jim Delton - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Doug Rogers)
Subject: Guidelines
Date: 4 May 91 21:58:07 GMT


New readers are always joining Paranet. For their benefit, allow me to review
the rules of posting which we ask all our users to adopt:


                   ******* PARANET ECHO POLICIES ********

The following are guidelines  for the operation of the Paranet Echos on member
boards. Please take a moment to read (and understand) these policies. If we'll
adopt these attitudes, we'll have a more polite, effective network.

1. No anonymous messages may be posted on the network.   Some Paranet BBS's
   allow users to use "handles", and  USENET  users  have no opportunity to
   place their names in the "From" field. If a user uses a handle, then all
   posts to  Paranet  Echos must be signed at the  end of the message using
   the user's REAL NAME. In  the  case  of  USENET  posts, it would help to
   place the  ADDRESSEE's REAL NAME in the subject field. It is the respon-
   sibility of the Sysop of each Paranet Node to enforce this  requirement,
   either  by  reviewing  all  messages  before  release, or by disallowing
   Paranet access to users using handles.

2. Personal Attacks  are *NOT* allowed in the Net. In any echo dealing with
   issues as emotional as those with which we deal it is a matter of course
   that  the validity of testimony on the part of certain individuals  will
   be  called into question.  It is important,  however,  to remember  that
   *ALL* parties are to be treated with respect.  If you wish to question a
   person's validity, state your reservations AS YOUR OPINION. For example:
   "John  Doe  is  a totally unreliable witness"  could leave  you  legally
   vulnerable.  "I BELIEVE John Doe to be a totally unreliable witness"  is
   much better,  especially if you can add "because...".  Please be careful
   how  you  judge  the  parties  involved,  and  attempt  to  defend  your
   contentions.

3. Any user who is found to have knowingly and deliberately posted false or
   misleading  information  regarding  the  activities of the United States
   Government,  its intelligence  agencies and/or operatives,  with respect
   to the investigation of UFOs or other related matters,  will  be  locked
   out  of  the  network  immediately   and  permanently,  and  their  name
   circulated to other UFO investigatory groups.

4. Direct Flames  are  best posted elsewhere. They will not be tolerated in
   the echos.

5. References  should be included if required for clarity.  Some users tend
   to  copy  the  entirity of previous messages  before  responding,  while
   others  never  quote anything and simply make  comments  about  previous
   posts.   You  should remember that many boards don't hold  all  messages
   forever.  Quote (if your software  allows it)  or  at  least  paraphrase
   (write  a  simple summary of) the content  of  the message you refer to.
   Please  DO NOT  quote the  entire  message,  as this is just expense for
   all boards concerned.  Quote only the germaine material.

6. Please make  all  messages conform to the specified content of the  Echo
   Area in which you are posting.  Putting  the  messages in the right pile
   makes it MUCH easier to make sense out of the stacks of messages.

7. Enforcement.  Users who violate these guidelines will  be advised of the
   lapse by the Echo Moderator. After three violation notices,  the user is
   to be locked out of Paranet areas by the sysop.  A FIRST lockout will be
   for  THIRTY DAYS.  A  SECOND lockout will be for NINETY days.  The THIRD
   lockout  will  be PERMANENT.  Sysops who refuse to lock out  troublesome
   users  can be dropped from the net by the Paranet Administrator.   Users
   who  believe  the Moderator has been unfair in requesting a lockout  can
   request  that  their Sysop plead their case in the Sysop Echo.  In  such
   cases,  ALL net Sysops will be asked to vote on the matter.  Vote of the
   net is binding on all concerned.

Doug Rogers
Echo Moderator




--
Doug Rogers - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Linda Bird)
Subject: Answer to your quest. & UFO Conferences
Date: 4 May 91 21:50:05 GMT

Hi Dan,
    Heck no, I did not write that article on Mars.  I only sent a copy to
Rpbert McGowan who had requested it.  It came out of a quarterly publication
from Florida called FOR THE PEOPLE.
    I received flyers about the conf. in Tucson.  You are right--it did not
receive much/any press from the Phoenix area.  I'm doing term papers right now
& can't get free.  And I'll be unable to go to Calif. for the same reason.
    Why do you think Wendelle Stevens lost credibility/popularity with the UFO
community?  Was it because he backed up Billy Meier at one time (and Billy has
only a few supporters anymore?)  I'm asking because I do not know; have only
graduated to Kindergarten in my knowledge of UFO subjects and people.
     I wish I could write an article as well-written as the one on Mars.  And
I would love to see more NASA photos.  Do you know how I could obtain some on
Mars as well as those of the moon that have stirred up so much interest?
      Thanks for your comments, Dan.
                 Linda


--
Linda Bird - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Linda Bird)
Subject: Print your answers!
Date: 4 May 91 22:19:57 GMT

Clar,
ClarK, that is!
     You should print your answers to the questions on Points and Procedures!
Put in in The Continuum!  Aside from being amusing, I'm sure your answers were
very close to what one SHOULD really do.
     Thanks for the enlightening info!

     :-)
           Linda

--
Linda Bird - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: ncar!violet.berkeley.edu!chalmers
Subject: alien artifacts/physical traces
Date: 9 May 91 13:41:17 GMT

From: [e-mail] (John H. Chalmers Jr.)

RE  Korac McArthur: Materials Science is advancing so fast,it's hard
to say what is possible with terrestrial technology if one wanted to
spend enough money on a hoax. I suspect we could duplicate any artifact
we could understand.
 Working artifacts that do something 'impossible' like FTL, space
warping, time travel, psychic amplification, matter transmission,
etc. would be another matter, of course.
 The problem with high pressue phases is that they usually revert when
the pressure is removed. Neutron stars are hypothesized to have hypersonic
volcanos powered by B-decay as the collapsed matter reverts at the surface
where the gravitational field is weak enough to destabilized the
electron-degenerate and/or neutron-rich phases.
 Even if the aliens had been studying us for a long time, I doubt
they'd just happen to have an universal cancer cure, since cancer is
a catch-all term for several hundred diseases with different causes
and characteristics. Several dozen oncogenes have been identified
which control growth and differentiation in normal tissues, but lead
to cancerous growth when mutated, overexpressed, expressed at the wrong
time, or inactivated. I just can't conceive of a single cure for
all cancers since cells can become cancerous for so many different
reasons.
 Chemotherapy works very crudely; some cancer cells are more
sensititive to growth inhibitors or radiation than normal tissue, so
they die faster, etc.
 I expect the 'cure' for cancer will be many different cures for many
different conditions, possibly including ageing as well.
 I think biological specimens might be the best evidence for ET's,
as I would expect that they would have very different biochemistries,
genetic codes, etc. from terrestrial organisms. DNA-less organisms are
certainly a possibility, even  proteinless ones are not too far-fetched
given the recent discoveries of catalytic RNA's. Different optical
activities would also be a smoking gun -- an organism composed
of D-amino acids and/or L-sugars would almost have to be ET. Silicate
could conceivably serve in some of the roles that phosphate does in
energy metabolism.
 ---- John




--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: ncar!ASTRO.dnet.ge.com!CARR
Subject: Getting Smart About Getting Smarts
Date: 10 May 91 01:36:04 GMT

From: Paul Carr <[e-mail]>

Could we start a discussion about Zen Faulkes article in the last
SE on the subject of extraterrestrial life (Spring 1991)?  I sense
that his reasoning is specious, but I've yet to nail down my counterargument.
If anyone is interested, I will try to summarize the article for those
who don't have access to SE (anyone seriously interested in the
Paranormal should pop for the $15/yr, though).  BTW, same issue carries
an interview with Dr. Thomas R. McDonough, the astrophysicist who heads
up SETI.




********To have your comments in the next issue, send electronic mail to********
                      'infopara' at the following address:

UUCP  {ncar,isis,boulder}!scicom!infopara
DOMAIN  [e-mail]
ADMIN Address [e-mail]
  {ncar,isis,boulder}!scicom!infopara-request

******************The**End**of**Info-ParaNet**Newsletter************************


                Info-ParaNet Newsletters   Volume I  Number 401

                             Monday, May 13th 1991

Today's Topics:

                                  Miscellaneous
                                Re: Alien Alloys
                               Print your answers!
                                Phoenix Journals
                              Mundrabilla Incident
                            Mundrabilla Incident (2)
                            Mundrabilla Incident (3)
                            Mundrabilla Incident (4)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: ncar!apple.com!well!ddrasin
Subject: Miscellaneous
Date: 11 May 91 00:34:07 GMT

From: well![e-mail] (Dan Drasin)



A few responses to tidbits from recent InfoParanet newsletters:

---------------------------------------------------------------------

+ From: Steve Warren

+ It would be difficult to find a sweeter scam than the one that the
+ owners of the Federal Reserve are benefiting from today.  They are
+ putting the wealth of America in their back pockets, and they come
+ out looking like our great benefactors, because they are
+ 'regulating' our money supply for us and keeping our economy nice
+ and stable.  Gee, thanks, guys.

+ You are right, though, this doesn't have anything to do with aliens.  ;^)

Steve, apparently you have not read William Bramley's THE GODS OF
EDEN. Highly rcommended.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
+ From: Scott Littleton

+ Even though I'm not quite sure about your argument, I'm very glad
+ to hear that you find my ideas interesting.  Yes, I have indeed
+ read Vallee's books (am in the middle of CONFRONTATIONS at the
+ moment) and have a great deal of respect for his ideas, although I
+ still find the ETH the most efficient explanation, at least from
+ the standpoint of Occam's Razor--that is, the Principle of
+ Parsimony.

Scott, any *single* explanation of UFO phenomena (plural) is bound to
be misleading. Beside the fact that nothing has only a single cause,
or even a single *level* of cause, there is abundant evidence
suggesting that what we call the 'UFO' is a broad range of phenomena
that can't be contained within any simple, cut-and-dried category.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

+ From: Korac MacArthur

+ I think a great example of such proof would be an alloy of known
+ metals that has a density greater than the sum of its parts, ie
+ compressed on a molecular level until the electron clouds of the
+ atoms 'touch' tightly.

While there is such a thing as material *evidence*, there is no such
thing as material proof. Proof itself is a consensus among people, not
objects or circumstances that might be considered a *basis* for
'proof.' Skeptics are technically correct when they say that such-and-
such a metal sample, while perhaps impossible to produce by means of
publically-known methods, cannot be a basis for proof that the source
is necessarily Extraterrestrial, Intraterrestrial, Extradimensional,
etc., etc.

+ Other possible proof objects: Very high temperature superconductors.

Making 'shopping lists' of "proof" objects or circumstances (a
'landing on the White House lawn' is an old favorite) is more of a map
of our own thinking processes than of the actual territory under
survey. When a mystery presents itself we must get to know it on its
own terms rather than imposing our own preconceptions on it. Otherwise
we'll go round and round forever in a hall of mirrors infintely
reflecting fixed or conventional views, and impose 'criteria of proof'
that simply don't apply in the given context. This is one reason some
people have made almost no progress in understanding the UFO
phenomenon in over forty years.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

+From: Pete Porro

+ Specifically in the case of Serios, I have my doubts. Nice parlor
+ trick is as far as I'll go on that one right now. If there is
+ evidence contary, I will be happy to change my mind and adjust
+ current wisdom... Is there a book titled 'The World of Serios' or
+ was that for explination? Any source you can recommend for reading
+ further about his polaroid mysterys.

Pete, the book is the *SECOND* edition of THE WORLD OF TED SERIOS,
by Jule Eisenbud, MD. It's published by McFarland & Company, Inc.,
Box 611, Jefferson, North Carolina, 28640. You may have to
special-order it. Well-worth the effort to obtain if you're really
interested in the evidence and the circumstances in which the evidence
was produced. It's a guaranteed 'good read.'

---------------------------------------------------------------------


By the way, I just returned from the First World UFO Congress in
Tucson. 40 international speakers, dozens of new photos, videos, etc.
A rather exhaustive (and exhausting) update on what's happening
worldwide.

The Soviet contingent included Dr. Marina Popovich, a cosmonaut and
one of the most highly-decorated test pilots in the Soviet Union. She
is a member of the Sov. Academy of Sciences. Her husband, general
Pavel Popovich, is an officer in the Anomalous Phenomena Division of
the Soviet Academy of Sciences. (That's right, their Academy of
Sciences inquires into anomalous phenomena without prejudice). Her
presentation went far beyond the Voronezh landings, which evidently
were only the beginning of a remarkble series of contacts that are
still going on today.

Valery Uvarov, of Leningrad, presented an extensive account of the
ongoing exeriences in the region of Tbilisi, capital of Soviet
Georgia, that include quite a number of benevolent surgical operations
performed on contactees, including himself. These have evidently been
confirmed by the state health ministry. Uvarov also brought a three-
hour documentary composed entirely of relatively unedited (i.e.,
interminable) amateur video that incuded some actual sightings and
lots of interviews with local people (particualrly children) who have
appear to be having quite remarkable experiences including on-board
contacts, paraphysical phenomena, etc.

Some local (Tucson) benefactors contributed three 8mm camcorders to
the Soviet ufological contingent which wants to be able to respond
more quickly to landing reports.

---

Jorge Martin, of Puerto Rico, presented some *outstandingly* clear
photographs of military pursuit arcraft (swing-wing jets; F-16's??)
circling a vary large metallic disk hovering over a forested area.
According to one congress participant, the disk is a *dead ringer* for
the infamous Roswell craft. UFO activity, including abductions, is
evidently quite common in southwest Puerto Rico, and its main source
seems to be a subterranean base with an underwater entrance south of
the island of Vieques in an area where such activity has been reported
for many years. Martin gave a number of accounts of mysterious,
illegal and exceedingly well-documented miltary operations in the
vicinity of downed craft in that region. Excellent presentation.

Well, that's just the tip of the iceberg. Videotapes of the congress
will be available for $150 (that's 45 hours of tape, not a bad deal)
after about a month.


Dan Drasin
[e-mail]




--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Subject: Re: Alien Alloys
Date: 5 May 91 16:07:00 GMT


 > In regard to Meiers Metal that was supposedly examained by
 > an IBM engineer - as I recall the "engineer" was a lower
 > level technician with a penchant for overstatment.

I believe he was a metallurgist named Marcel Vogel at IBM in
California.

 > seem to recall that after the piece was analyzed it
 > conveniently was lost - the "engineer" was carrying it
 > around in his pocket and misplaced it, or some such
 > nonsense.

I heard that too.

Best,
  Clark


--
Clark Matthews - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
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From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Subject: Print your answers!
Date: 5 May 91 16:17:00 GMT


 > ClarK, that is!
 >      You should print your answers to the questions on
 > Points and Procedures!
 > Put in in The Continuum!  Aside from being amusing, I'm
 > sure your answers were very close to what one SHOULD really
 > do.
 >      Thanks for the enlightening info!
 >
 >      :-)

You're welcome, I'm sure!  Actually, I believe that for the most
part the answers may turn out to be good practice.  Especially
the standing rule not to use the telephone if you have important
first-hand information or a primary source.

Actually Otis writes that stuff.  He's such a card...

I'd love to print it, but Otis's agent keeps trying to get me to
sign some sort of weird exclusivity agreement in blood.
Something about 7 years free use and then automatic revocation of
the Party of the First Part (that's me...)

:-)

We'll see about printing it.  I've a little old fashioned about
publishing my own stuff.  People like Michael Korda have no such
compunctions, but then again I'm not people like Michael Korda.

I am contributing an article on alternate tech. developments,
though.

Best,
  Clark


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From: [e-mail] (Bryce Eckstein)
Subject: Phoenix Journals
Date: 2 May 91 16:15:00 GMT

Hello Greg!

> The Phoenix Journals are available from
>
> America West Publishers, Inc.
> P.O. Box 986
> Tehachapi, CA 93581
>
> Phone: [phone]

Thanks for that information - much appreciated.

Cheers

Bryce

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From: [e-mail] (sm)
Subject: Mundrabilla Incident
Date: 7 May 91 20:51:00 GMT

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                     UFO RESEARCH AUSTRALIA

                    THE MUNDRABILLA INCIDENT
                     THE KNOWLES' ENCOUNTER

In  the  early hours of Wednesday morning January 20,  1988,  the
occupants  of  a  number of vehicles travelling  along  the  main
highway  between  Perth, Western Australia, and  Adelaide,  South
Australia, were reportedly involved in an incident.

This report has been compiled from a personal interview with  the
main percipients, the Knowles family; a statement given to police
by the Knowles; an inspection of their vehicle; an interview with
one  of the truck drivers, and from the extensive media  coverage
given  to  the incident, especially from taped  video  interviews
which  appeared on television. Details of independent  laboratory
testing results have been made available to us.

 It  will  be  some time, perhaps months before we  are  able  to
present an in-depth report for distribution. However, due to  the
constant  demand from many quarters for a preliminary  report  on
our inquiries, we make this material available with the following
qualification.

The  report is a raw information, with no attempt at analysis  or
interpretation at this stage. lt will clearly be seen that  there
are discrepancies within the accounts given by the Knowles to  De
Jong  and the story we obtained the following day e.g.  which  of
Mrs.  Knowles' hands was affected. As we have been denied  access
to the Knowles for clarification we can only present the  details
as we have been given them.


Our  investigations have been conducted amidst what can  only  be
described  as  a 'media circus'. To indicate  the  intense  media
interest in the incident, the authors have now fielded well  over
one  hundred  individual inquiries from all over  Australia,  New
Zealand, Northern Ireland, and the U.S.A.

In this report, compiled on March 17, 1988, we hope to cover  as
much  detail  as  possible about what has  become  known  as  the
Mundrabilla incident.


Members  of  investigation  team in this  case  have  been  Keith
Basterfield, Ray Brooke, Steve Bolton, Vladimir and Pony Godic in
Adelaide; Garry Little in Melbourne, and Joan Johnston in Perth.


           LOCATION

The incident occurred on a stretch of the main bitumised highway
between Perth and Adelaide. Between the localities of Madura  and
Eucla,  Western Australia, the area is more locally known as  The
Basin  and it is here that the episode reportedly  occurred  (see
maps  1 and 2). It is an isolated stretch of road with the  Great
Australian Bight (Ocean) to the South and a range of hills to the
North.

Due  to the distance of the site from Adelaide (1100 km  by  air)
and the ephemeral nature of the physical evidence at the spot, we
have  not visited Mundrabilla ourselves. However, driver De  Jong
has  provided us with an excellent description of  the  location,
and  showed  us pictures of the general area.  Together  with  TV
shots  of  the  area this has given us an  understanding  of  the
isolated  nature  of  this stretch of  road,  the  terrain,  road
surface and vegetation present.

 THE VEHICLES

As pieced together to date the sequence of events was as follows.
Four vehicles were involved. Three were travelling eastwards (see
figure 1) towards Eucla, and the other is understood to have been
on  its way westwards in the direction of Perth.  These  vehicles
were  spread over at least a 10 - 15 kilometer distance  and  not
travelling in a close convoy.

On  initial  media advice it was thought that there was  a  fifth
vehicle travelling westwards. This now appears spurious.

Vehicle  one  was  a car and caravan, which is  reported  by  the
Knowles to have almost collided with their car when driver,  Sean
Knowles, stated he took evasive action swerving to avoid a  close
encounter  with the object. The identity of the occupant of  this
vehicle  has not been discovered by anyone to date and, in  fact,
this  person seem to have been entirely overlooked by the  media.
On  Sean's testimony this driver should have seen the  object  at
close  range. We placed an article in a Perth Sunday paper in  an
attempt to locate this person, but there has been no response  to
date.

Vehicle two was a truck being driven by a Mr. Graham Henley,  57,
transport operator of Forest Hill, Victoria. Media reports  place
Mr.  Henley  driving  his truck though The Basin  some  10  -  15
kilometers ahead of the Knowles' car. We have contacted  Henley's
wife  and  asked him to talk to us. However, to date he  has  not
responded,  although  most of the time he is  apparently  on  the
road.

<Continued in next message..>

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From: [e-mail] (sm)
Subject: Mundrabilla Incident (2)
Date: 7 May 91 20:52:00 GMT

<Continued from previous message>

Vehicle  three  was  a Ford Telstar sedan  (car)  containing  the
Knowles family from Perth, to whom we shall return later in  this
report.

Vehicle  four was a truck owned by a transport operator  whom  we
now know to be named De Jong (nickname 'Porky'). This vehicle was
at  an unknown distance behind Knowles' car, and at the time  was
being driven by a woman friend of De Jong's, named Anne.

As  at  March  17,  we have now  identified  and  spoken  to  the
occupants  of two of the four vehicles involved. It may  be  some
time  before  we  are able to personally  interview  the  others,
particularly the currently unknown driver.

 INVESTIGATION BY US


The  story broke to us about 2.30 p.m. on Wednesday  January  20.
The  Ceduna police telephoned Ray Brooke whilst the Knowles  were
present at the station. Arrangements were made for the family  to
proceed  to  Adelaide  where they would be  interviewed  and  the
vehicle  inspected,  documenting the  physical  evidence.  Ceduna
police  advised  us  they had secured written  statements  and  a
sample  of a deposit for analysis. Nothing else could be done  by
UFO Research (SA) until family and vehicle arrived in Adelaide.

The  story  leaked  to the media, however, and  the  family  were
intercepted  enroute  and  concluded a deal with  the  Channel  7
television network. It appeared at this stage that 'cheque  book'
journalism has scored over scientific evaluation.


On  Thursday January 21, after negotiations with the  7  network,
the  authors  were  able to spend three  hours  at  the  Adelaide
Channel   7  studios  whilst  the  Knowles  underwent   extensive
interviews.  Between interviews we managed to talk informally  to
all  members  of  the family. No formal  in-depth  interview  was
possible in the circumstances. We confirmed their basic story  as
related below.

The  family  was distressed and tired at this stage and  told  us
they wanted a finish to all television interviews. They  appeared
to  us  to  be  down to earth people trying  to  cope  with  some
traumatic episode. Indications of a hoax were minimal.

Following the end of the interviews at the station we sought  our
own  formal in-depth interview. However, the family declined  and
then  left  for  an  undisclosed  location.  The  next  day  they
travelled  on to Melbourne, Victoria, some 800 km from us,  where
we understand they still remain.

However,  the  story  as  pieced together  from  our  first  hand
interview,  and  from  notes taken  whilst  watching  several  TV
interviews being taped, is as follows.

       THE MAIN PERCIPIENTS

Mrs.  Faye Knowles, 43, and sons, Sean 21, Patrick 24, and  Wayne
18,  were  travelling  from  Perth,  Western  Australia  (WA)  to
Melbourne, Victoria, for a surprise visit to Mrs. Knowles' family
in Melbourne.

At  a still undetermined point West of Mundrabilla WA, Sean,  the
driver,  saw  what  he  at first took  to  be  a  truck's  light,
apparently along the road, approaching them from the East. As  it
approached,  it then disappeared after "jumping about a bit".  It
became  visible  again and continued to approach  their  vehicle.
Sean  commented  that  it looked like a  "spaceship".  It  become
brighter  and  bigger.  They kept driving  towards  it.  It  then
disappeared.


The next thing they knew it was behind them. Sean accelerated the
car  in an attempt to get away from it. Suddenly it was in  front
again.

At  some  stage Sean did a U-turn and travelled westwards  for  a
while,  then did another U-turn to resume the original  eastwards
travel.  It is not clear whether this was an attempt to elude  or
follow the light.

At  another time Sean commented that the light was seen close  to
their  vehicle and they swerved to miss it and nearly hit  a  car
and caravan coming the other way.

The  exact  sequence  of events from here is  very  confused.  It
included:

*  The rear right tire blowing out while they were travelling  at
speed. Sean braked the car to a halt.

*  Mrs. Knowles placing her hand on the car's roof and feeling  a
"spongy  substance". Mrs. Knowles told us she was sitting in  the
rear passenger seat, behind the driver, nearest the center of the
road. (In Australia vehicles are driven on the left hand side  of
the  road). She stated she wound down her window and  placed  her
right  hand on the roof. She had retracted it after feeling  some
material on the roof. Immediately the back of her hand felt  warm
for a few seconds, then the sensation of heat faded.

* The family winding down the windows and a "greyish-black  mist"
coming into the car.

*  The sound of their voices changing in pitch and  appearing  to
slow down.

*  Them  believing that the object had landed on the  roof.  When
questioned they said they did not see anything approach and  land
on the roof, nor did they see anything protruding front, rear  or
over the sides of the roof.

<Continued in next message..>

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From: [e-mail] (sm)
Subject: Mundrabilla Incident (3)
Date: 7 May 91 20:52:00 GMT

<<Continued from previous message>>

*A humming sound was heard.


* Sean blacking out over a period.

* Them all becoming hysterical, shouting and crying. Mrs. Knowles
said she believed they were going to die.

*A black deposit being found inside and outside the car.

* Indentations being found on the roof.

*  Them believing the car was lifted off the road. However,  when
asked  if they looked out of the windows and saw the car off  the
ground, they had not done so.

* Them saying that the vehicle was dropped to the ground and  the
tire burst.

* Their two dogs going "crazy".

* A smell like "dead bodies" in the air.

* Them reporting that the car started shaking.

It  should  be emphasized that the exact sequence  of  the  above
events  has not been able to be obtained from the family as  they
have not been available to us since January 21.

After a period of time Sean stopped the car and they all got  out
to  adjacent scrub. They reported that the light/object  remained
in  the  vicinity  of the car and  then  departed.  Some  fifteen
minutes,  after  stopping, they returned to the car  and  rapidly
changed  the  tire.  From  that point (believed  to  be  some  40
kilometers  West of Mundrabilla) they drove to Mundrabilla  Motor
Hotel (WA).

        POLICE STATEMENT

On  March  17  we  received a copy of a  statement  of  a  Senior
Constable  First Grade of the Port Lincoln crime  scene  section,
Port Lincoln.

It records details, related a few hours after the incident and so
is presented (unedited) in full.


At about 1.00 p.m. (SA time) on Wednesday January 20, 1988, I was
approached at the Ceduna Police Station by two male persons (Sean
Knowles and his brother Patrick Knowles).

They reported to me that while driving on the Eyre Highway, at  a
point  between  Madura and Mundrabilla in Western  Australia,  at
about  5.30 a.m. (WA time) this date, they were confronted by  an
extremely  white  light about 15 - 18 meters in  front  of  their
vehicle. They described the light as being extremely bright white
with  a  yellow core. They further stated that their  vehicle,  a
Ford  Telstar, had been damaged by the object when it  landed  on
the  roof of their vehicle while they were travelling at a  speed
of  about  110 kilometers an hour. They further stated  that  the
object, while on the roof of their car, had showered the  vehicle
with a black ash type dust.

They  displayed  great  anxiety and were visibly  shaken  by  the
ordeal.  I  asked why they had not reported the incident  to  the
Police  Station  at Eucla in Western Australia prior  to  leaving
that  state,  and they informed me that they had  not  sighted  a
Police Station at Eucla.

Neither  did  I  receive  from  them  a  completely  satisfactory
explanation as to why they had not reported the matter at  Penong
Police Station being the first Police Station in South  Australia
which they had passed.

This  may have been a double sided question  therefore  receiving
one answer. The vehicle was parked in Poynton Street, Ceduna.

I attended at the vehicle in company with two persons and made an
inspection  of the damage to the hood of the vehicle  which  they
indicated to me as having been caused by the object when on their
vehicle.

I found that there were superficial dents to the four corners  of
the hood although the remainder of the hood appeared undamaged.

The exterior of the vehicle was covered by a fine black/grey dust
similar to a road film left on a vehicle in need of washing. That
same dust was obvious on the upholstery within the vehicle.

An inspection of the complete vehicle indicated that it  appeared
quite well looked after and did not display any noticeable damage
consistent with having been involved in an accident or  collision
of any kind. All tires on the vehicle were in good condition  and
showed at least 3/4 tread.

They  told me that whilst attempting to escape from  the  object,
the  rear right hand tire had blown out. I asked to see the  tire
which was produced from the boot of the vehicle. The tire was  of
the same make as the other tires on the vehicle and had the  same
amount  tread wear. It was in good condition.  However,  complete
outer side of the tire was fractured at the base of the tread.  I
asked  for  the vehicle to be conveyed to the police  station  at
Ceduna  where  I could speak further with the  occupants  of  the
vehicle and make further examination of it.

<Continued in next message..>

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From: [e-mail] (sm)
Subject: Mundrabilla Incident (4)
Date: 7 May 91 20:56:00 GMT

<<<Continued from previous message>>>

On  return to the station I spoke to Mrs. Knowles in  a  location
where we were out of earshot of the other occupants. Mrs. Knowles
was visibly shaken by the ordeal and insisted (upon) her  honesty
in  the belief that the Police were skeptical at the report  they
were making.

It  was stated that they had been on the Eyre Highway,  at  about
5.30 a.m., when they were confronted by the brilliant white light
in  front  of the vehicle. The light remained  a  short  distance
ahead  of  the vehicle and began to 'zig-zag' from side  to  side
across the road. They stated that the object was about one  meter
in  width  but were unable to estimate the height except  to  say
that it blocked their view of the road ahead of the vehicle.

At  this  time,  a  second  vehicle  approached  their   position
travelling  in  a westerly direction on the  Eyre  Highway.  They
stated  that the object gave chase to this vehicle and, in  fact,
they lost sight of it to the rear of their vehicle as it  circled
around  their  right hand side in apparent pursuit of  the  other
vehicle.  At  this  point I asked Sean to draw a  sketch  of  the
object  which he did. The sketch resembled an egg in an egg  cup.
The ground was indicated at the base of the egg cup.

They  stated that the object then came from behind their  vehicle
and their vehicle began to shake violently on the road from  side
to  side. Both stated having been extremely scared at  this  time
and  Sean  stated that he increased speed of the  vehicle  in  an
attempt to escape from the object.

Mrs. Knowles then stated that she wound down the rear right  side
window  and  reached toward the hood of the vehicle.  She  stated
that  she felt something on the hood of the vehicle and made  her
distress  known to the other persons in the vehicle.  Both,  Sean
and  Mrs. Knowles, could not recall any indication of  light,  at
this  time, from the object on the roof, but Mrs. Knowles  stated
that  it felt soft, spongy and rubbery, and was hot although  she
did not burn her hand. On retrieving her hand, however, she found
that it was covered in black/grey dust.

Both  stated  that at this time they were aware of  high  pitched
whirring or hissing noise but which was of normal intensity. Both
stated  they felt disorientated and that they noticed that  their
voices had become slow and deep when they spoke.

They  were unable to say how long the object was on the  roof  of
the  car but, during the time it was there, it appeared  to  lift
the  vehicle off the road and forced it back down heavily on  the
road. The rear right side tire on the vehicle then blew out. Sean
considered  that this occurred as a result of the weight  of  the
object forcing down on the vehicle.

They  stated that the object then vanished and they were able  to
stop  the  vehicle. They both stated that the wheel  was  changed
hurriedly and they were about to move off again when they noticed
the object again, glowing bright white, ahead of the vehicle. The
object appeared to be in the center of the road.


They were extremely concerned and scared and, in fact, drove  the
vehicle   behind  roadside  bushes,  vacated  the  vehicle,   and
themselves hid separately from the vehicle. They remained  hidden
for a short period until they could no longer see the object  and
then  drove from the location to the Mundrabilla Roadhouse  where
they  spoke with persons at that establishment shortly  prior  to
6.00 a.m. (W.A. time).

I  then spoke to the passenger who had been indicated as  sitting
in  the front left side of the vehicle, Patrick Knowles. I  spoke
with him separately from Sean and Mrs. Knowles and before he  had
an opportunity of conversing with them.

His indication of the situation, which had occurred, was  similar
to that as told to me by the others, although his description  of
incidents  differed. He stated that his impression of the  object
was about similar in size, to that indicated, but it appeared  to
him  to  have a brighter light at the top and at the  bottom.  He
described  it  as being bigger than the car and  that  the  light
which it gave off was brilliant white. He also stated that, after
the  object  was apparently on the hood of the vehicle,  and  his
mother  had  felt it and remarked, he had opened  his  left  side
front window and had been showered with a black powdery dust.  He
was also aware of a foul smell. He stated that he began  speaking
with a deep voice which was obviously sluggish and he gained  the
impression that the object was 'taking over his body'.

His impression of the object on the roof of the vehicle was  that
it was heavy, and was pushing down on the vehicle, and  concurred
that  at that point, while driving faster to escape  the  object,
the rear right tire blew out.

His  impression of the noise, which apparently emanated from  the
object, was that it was a deep whirring sound. He made no mention
of any light being emitted from the object whilst on the vehicle.

He  stated  that  they  had  driven  from  the  location  to  the
Mundrabilla Roadhouse where they had spoken to persons  including
a semitrailer driver who, they believe, had made observations  of
the  white light as it was travelling on the Eyre Highway in  the
same location and the time indicated.

<Continued in next message..>

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******************The**End**of**Info-ParaNet**Newsletter************************


                Info-ParaNet Newsletters   Volume I  Number 402

                             Monday, May 13th 1991

Today's Topics:

                            Mundrabilla Incident (5)
                            Mundrabilla Incident (6)
                            Mundrabilla Incident (7)
                        Mundrabilla Incident (Conclusion)
                               Re: RECENT STUDIES
                                     sitchin
                        Re: 'UFO Abductions' show on CBS
                                Re: Frank Edwards
                       Meier, Stevens, Tucson and the Moon

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (sm)
Subject: Mundrabilla Incident (5)
Date: 7 May 91 20:57:00 GMT

<<<<Continued from previous message>>>>

I  have checked with the Eucla Police and ascertained  that  they
received  a similar report to that given by the four  persons  at
the  Ceduna Police Station. Their report had been received  early
on  the  morning  of  20/1/88, apparently  from  a  driver  of  a
semitrailer.

Eucla Police were aware of the report made by the four persons to
the  Mundrabilla Roadhouse and were looking for the Ford  Telstar
vehicle to obtain particulars of incident.

They have conducted inquiries in the Mundrabilla area particulars
of which I am not conversant.

      THE KNOWLES' VEHICLE

The Knowles' vehicle, a blue 1984 Ford AR Telstar GL, front drive
automatic  sedan, registration number 7GD-560 was made  available
to  us by Channel 7 on February 2, after it was transported  from
Wudinna, South Australia. It was inspected by UFO Research (South
Australia) and UFO Research Australia. Comments follow:

The  vehicle  was  generally in good  condition.  There  were  no
immediate  signs of damage to it, when first seen, apart  from  a
shattered  driver's  mirror. The mirror itself was  not  present.
(Sean  advised us that they hit a kangaroo at one stage of  their
trip,  and it is not known what damage to the car is a result  of
this  collision with the animal). The bodywork, for its age,  was
in extremely good condition. The engine was relatively clean, and
there were no signs of panel beating.

Speedometer reading was 002414.2 km but as the car is four  years
old  this  would  suggest  a  total  of  102,414.2  km  has  been
travelled.

Tires:

All  five  tires  were tubeless Dunlop Grand  Prix  steel  belted
radials type P185/75 SR 14. The front left, front right and  rear
left  (as  viewed from the driver's seat looking  forwards)  were
first  time  tires. The rear right (this replaced the  one  which
blew) was a retread. The damaged tire was found in the boot.

The damaged tire:

This  tire  had  blown  out along a line  where  the  steel  belt
finishes and starts to go up the wall of the tire, in a  circular
fashion.

Its  tread  was  good, perhaps half of its  original  life  left,
slightly  worn  on the outside. The whole valve for  pumping  air
into the tire, was missing.

Roof:

>From a distance of a few meters it was difficult to see the  four
reported  indentation in the roof. In position they were  roughly
at  the  corners of the roof. At close range it was  possible  to
locate  four small in area, shallow in depth,  indentations.  The
areas  were depressions, not cuts, and the paint in  these  spots
was still intact. There was no evidence of an indentation in  the
center  of the roof, nor any other prominent mark or scratch.  No
luggage rack was present.

Electrical:

The family reported no effects to the engine, lights or clock  at
the  time  of the event. We checked the  sidelights,  headlights,
indicators, washers, interior roof light, booth light, radio  and
digital clock and all were found to be operable. When testing the
rear  red  brake  lights  we found the right  hand  light  to  be
inoperable.

The battery was a six cell unit in good condition. Internal fluid
levels  were  fine. Terminals were clean, firmly fitted  with  no
corrosion evident.

Engine  is  a four cylinder, petrol driven,  2.0  liter  capacity
motor.  Speedometer, odometer, fuel and temperature  gauges  were
operable.  No tachometer was fitted. The car was driven by  us  a
short distance within the Channel 7 car park.

Radio/cassette:

It  had a small, loosely fitted unit in poor  physical  condition
with broken knobs, dual speakers, AM/FM bands, 'Realistic' brand.
Its  aerial  was side roof mounted over the driver's  door.  When
tested in Adelaide by us with aerial down the unit generated lots
of  static.  With aerial fully extended the  unit  played  fairly
well.

Internal/external deposits:

There  was  no  evidence  of any  black  deposit,  internally  or
externally,  on our inspection except as stated  below.  However,
the  vehicle  had  travelled from Mundrabilla WA  to  Wudinna  SA
(several  hundred kilometers) under its own power, and then  from
Wudinna  to  Adelaide by truck (another few  hundred  kilometers)
before we viewed it.

In  addition to this, on the day prior to our viewing we are  led
to  understand  that Paul Norman, of the Victorian  UFO  Research
Society,  vacuumed  the vehicle in order to take  sample.  It  is
hoped that the results of his testing will be speedily  available
to us all.

The  inside  floor  areas  of the  car  were  covered  with  sand
particles,  pieces  of  food, empty drink  containers  and  other
debris.

<Continued in next message..>

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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (sm)
Subject: Mundrabilla Incident (6)
Date: 7 May 91 20:58:00 GMT

<<<<<Continued from previous message>>>>>

The one exception, as far as black deposits go, is as follows. On
the metal trims of the two front tires, there was a black deposit
present.  This  was  not Present on the two rear  tires  nor  the
damaged tire in the boot. It was distributed around the trim, but
did  not extend to hub cap, wheel nuts nor anywhere else  on  the
metal  surface of the tire. Its distribution was consistent  with
coming  from  disk brake pads, fitted to the  two  front  wheels,
under heavy braking, i.e. worn brake linings.

 INTERVIEW WITH MR. DE JONG

Mr.  De  Jong  (nickname 'Porky) and a woman,  named  Anne,  were
travelling  by truck from Perth, WA, to Adelaide, SA, at a  speed
of about 95-100 km/h. They had stopped at the Madura Pass, WA, in
order  to change drivers. Mr. De Jong went to sleep in  the  rear
cabin whilst Anne took over the driving.

A  colleague of theirs, Graham Henley, was driving a truck  along
the  same road, in the same direction, but he was ahead of  them.
They  were far enough behind him that they were not able  to  see
his lights at all during the trip between Madura and Mundrabilla.

At a point forty kilometers West of Mundrabilla (close to the  40
km  sign post) they'd passed an S bend in the road when Anne  saw
two people waving on the right hand (opposite) side of the  road.
(In Australia vehicles drive on the left hand side of the  road).
Within  150 meters further on there was a car, also on the  right
hand  side  of  the road. The front of the car was  facing  in  a
south-westerly  direction,  i.e. back towards Perth.  Anne  asked
Porky  whether or not she should stop. After raising up from  the
bunk, he said 'No'. They continued on.

Later  a car overtook them at speed. After passing  their  truck,
Anne noticed that the vehicle's lights were switched off. In  her
opinion  the night was still too dark for a vehicle not  to  have
lights on. Then the lights of the vehicle came back on.  Arriving
at  Mundrabilla.  they noted that another  truck  driver,  Graham
Henley,  was  present and talking to a group of people  around  a
car.  After  looking  at the truck Porky and Anne  went  over  to
Henley.  They then established it was these people who  had  been
waving  at the side of the road and also the same people who  had
passed their truck at speed.

The  group in the car consisted of a woman and three  young  man.
Porky says the woman appeared hysterical and the boys also looked
disturbed.  One was a white color in his face. They told a  story
of  a UFO. The behavior of the woman convinced the three of  them
that something unusual had occurred there.

The woman, established later to be Mrs. Knowles, had a red blotch
on  the back of her left hand which she was worrying  about.  She
told  them  she  had  touched something on  the  roof.  She  kept
repeating: 'Someone's got to do something', and 'Someone's  going
to get hurt.'

THE KNOWLES' STORY AS RELATED TO
            DE JONG

The family were heading eastwards towards Melbourne for  holidays
with  relatives.  Sean  was  driving at  the  time,  Patrick  was
believed to be in the front bucket seat, Mrs. Knowles in the rear
left  seat  behind  Patrick, and Wayne in  the  seat  behind  the
driver.  Initially  they saw a bright light ahead of  them  which
they  took to be a truck. Something was then over the  car.  They
heard a high pitched whirring noise. Their minds and bodies  were
taken over. Voices appeared slow and funny. Mrs. Knowles put  her
left hand on top of the roof and felt something. This  frightened
her. The car was lifted off the ground to an unknown height. They
did  not  know how long it was airborne. The car dropped  to  the
ground. They left the scene heading westwards. Then they  stopped
to  change  the tire, made a U turn and headed  eastwards  again.
Porky formed an opinion that all this happened in 15-20 minutes.

 QUESTIONS

Graham and Porky questioned the family about the incident.

1. The noise: Graham asked them if the noise they had heard could
have been a helicopter. The family said the noise was  definitely
different from that of a helicopter. One of the boys said it  was
a 'whirry' noise not a helicopter 'chuffy' sound.

2.  Asked how high they were off the road, they said they  didn't
know.

The  two drivers volunteered to take the family back to the  spot
to have look at the area. The family declined.

The vehicle was inspected by the two drivers with Graham pointing
out features and Porky following behind.

<Continued in next message..>

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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (sm)
Subject: Mundrabilla Incident (7)
Date: 7 May 91 20:59:00 GMT

<<<<<<Continued from previous message>>>>>>

 INSPECTION OF THE VEHICLE

Porky looked at the vehicle. His observations were:

1. Of the burst tire: There was nothing inside the casing of  the
burst tire.

2.  There was a smell about the car which he said was closest  to
'bakelite'.

3. There was nothing underneath the vehicle, i.e. no saltbush. He
concluded the vehicle had not been driven into the scrub.

4.  Porky did not see any black ash/dust on the vehicle.  Neither
inside nor outside. The car was dusty and dirty as per normal car
travel.

5.  The boot was in a shambles, everything scattered. There  were
no suitcases in the boot nor in or on the car.

6.  There were four marks on the roof, one at each corner.  These
were  indentations not cuts. They looked the same as a  mark  one
would make by hitting the roof with a fist.

The  Knowles family left Mundrabilla heading towards  Eucla,  WA,
and then South Australia, after spending no more than 30  minutes
at Mundrabilla.

Graham  and  Porky  went into the road house  and  discussed  the
episode with the manageress there, Mrs. Shirley Lundon. Following
this discussion Mrs. Lundon telephoned the Sergeant at the  Eucla
police Station. Porky spoke to him and told him what he knew.

After  this the two truck drivers borrowed an automatic  utility,
from the road house, and went out to the spot together with Anne.
They  went back along the road to see what they could  find,  but
especially to look for three things:

a.   Clumps  of  rubber on the bitumen  which  would  indicate  a
blowout.

b.  Pieces of glass from the drivers side mirror. The mirror  was
reportedly  smashed  after a kangaroo hit the  Knowles'  vehicle.
This was said to be during the time they had their vehicle lights
out in front of the truck.

c. The car jack and car jack handle reportedly left at the scene.

The  group  could  not find evidence of  any  of  these,  despite
knowing the area/road well and knowing exactly where the car  was
parked, and kangaroo hit.

Both sides of the road were inspected at low speed.

 THE SITE

They  located the spot where they had seen the car stationary  on
the  side  of  the  road.  The road  at  this  spot  is  slightly
undulating.  By this time it had been an estimated 1-1 1/2  hours
since  they passed the spot the first time, and the time now  was
between 0545 to 0615.

The  evidence  at the location, which they  saw  for  themselves,
consisted of the following:

1.  Footprints.  There  were footprints where  persons  had  been
walking  around. There were four sets of prints heading from  the
car  away  into  the bush in a  south-westerly  direction.  These
prints  were not full marks but more front foot and toe marks  as
if  running. From a point in the bush there were  prints  heading
back  to  the road in a northerly direction in a  straight  line.
There were then four sets of prints plus dog paw marks going back
along  the  side  of the road in the sand - full  pattern  as  if
people  were walking. One set of prints was that of someone  with
bare feet, one with thongs and two with shoes or runners.

2.  There  was the impression in the ground of a car  jack  where
they had changed the tire. When questioned, Porky believed it was
a squarish mark and not one of the old round jacks.

3.  Tire prints. On the bitumen there was a skid mark some  15-20
meters long apparently made by the rear left hand tire when  they
pulled  up. In the dirt there was evidence of a flat tire on  the
vehicle coming off the road, and no flat tire when they got  back
onto  the  road,  There were signs that the  vehicle  was  driven
backwards on to the bitumen before doing a U-turn and  proceeding
eastwards.

There  was,  however, no sign of the car jack  handle  reportedly
used to change the tire. They did a grid pattern search for these
and were perturbed when they couldn't find them.

They failed to find any trace of clothes, which they believed  to
have been loose in the boot, which the Knowles said they took out
to get to the spare tire and which they left at the scene.

          AFTERWARDS

The  truck  party then returned to Mundrabilla  where  Porky  had
another talk to the Eucla police. He learnt that the vehicle  had
passed through Eucla by then. He suggested the police call Penong
police in South Australia and have the car stopped, as there  was
definitely something wrong.

After  a  whole  morning had passed by,  the  two  truck  drivers
finally  left Mundrabilla and headed on. Porky went on to  Penong
where they stopped for a while and then on to Wudinna for coffee.
A  helicopter  turned  up there and  they  investigated,  finally
learning  that  the Knowles family were in a  motel  and  various
media organizations were also present. After some time they  were
allowed to talk to the Knowles family.

After  talking  to the Knowles they proceeded to  Adelaide  where
Porky appeared on Channel 9 for a short interview.

<Continued in next message..>

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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (sm)
Subject: Mundrabilla Incident (Conclusion)
Date: 7 May 91 20:59:00 GMT

<<<<<<<Continued from previous message>>>>>>>

         MISCELLANEOUS

1.  Porky knows the road well as he has been a  truck  contractor
travelling between Perth and Adelaide for several years.

2. They did not know the Knowles vehicle was ahead of them during
the  section  Madura/Mundrabilla, i.e. they didn't  see  the  car
lights ahead of them until the Knowles passed them.

3.  Porky says the Knowles car couldn't have been on the side  of
the road when Graham passed the spot.

4.  Anne saw no unusual lights at any stage, especially not  when
they  passed the Knowles' car. No unusual effects were  noted  on
the  engine, lights, UHF nor CB radio, steering etc.  No  unusual
sounds were heard.

5.  Timing:  It was between 0400 and 0430 local  time  when  they
passed  the  stationary  car  on the  side  of  the  road.  Porky
confirmed the time as about 0445 when he got to Mundrabilla. They
said it was still definitely dark when they passed the stationary
car.

6.  Mrs.  Knowles was sitting on the left hand  side  passenger's
seat, not behind the driver, according to Porky.

7.  Sean was the driver at this time. He appeared  hysterical  to
Porky and was unable to talk at all at Mundrabilla.

8. The weather: At Madura Pass Porky had checked the vehicle.  He
noted that the night was clear, stars were visible, there was  no
Moon.  He  said it was a clear sky, no clouds an no sign  of  any
lightning in the area. Sunrise was definitely after they saw  the
figures waving at the side of the road.

9.  Graham  told Porky that he had seen an unusual light  in  his
rear vision mirror and tried to call Porky on his CB radio. Porky
did  not receive such a call but believes he was out of range  at
the  time  anyway.  Graham did not know Porky pulled  up  at  the
Madura  Pass  and  stayed  there a  while,  thus  increasing  the
distance behind the two vehicles. At the time of passing the  car
they  had  on  low volume a CB radio and a UHF  radio.  Anne  was
listening to a cassette.

10.  Asked if the Knowles had mentioned any other  vehicle  being
involved  in the encounter, Porky said no, they hadn't. Anne  was
asked if she saw vehicles going the other way, i.e. West,  during
the  time Madura to Mundrabilla. She said yes. Without being  led
she  was asked if she had recollections of a car and van  passing
the other way. She stated she did not remember such going by, and
added that it would be rare for someone to pull a van during  the
night anyway.

11.  Upon  the  return trip in the utility they did  find  a  man
asleep  in a car, 20 km west of Mundrabilla. They woke him up  by
looking in his car.

     THE PHYSICAL EVIDENCE
     REPORT BY INDEPENDENT
          LABORATORY

Channel  7  asked the Australian Mineral  Development  Laboratory
(AMDEL)  in  Adelaide to examine the car whilst it  was  held  at
Wudinna.

A  copy  of AMDEL report, dated January 29, 1988, has  been  made
available to us by Channel 7.

Relevant extracts from the report read as follows:

'A  visual examination of the failed tire, front and  rear  wheel
arches,  roof  and vehicle interior was carried out.  Samples  of
dust  were  removed from the left front wheel.  The  vehicle  was
inspected using a portable radiation meter.

'The  dust  samples  were analyzed using  X-ray  diffraction  and
emission  spectroscopy techniques. The analysis was  compared  to
analyses  of  material taken from front wheels  in  the  Adelaide
area.

Re the dents on the roof:

'The dents were consistent with an object being pressed into  the
roof rather than an attempt to lift the roof.

'Inspection  of the vehicle using a radiation meter  revealed  no
areas  showing  count rates above the  background  levels.  Areas
inspected  included the roof, front and back seat, and the  front
wheels.

Re the dust:

'The  analyses are considered to be characteristic of  dust  from
wearing  brake pads and discs. No significant  foreign  compounds
were present in the dust samples.

'Summary - The investigation revealed that the damage to the tire
was  consistent with running on a deflated tire for  an  extended
period.  It is considered that this would account for  the  odor,
smoke and vibration sensed during the incident.


'The  material taken from around the front wheels was typical  of
residual  dust from wearing brake pads and discs. No  significant
dust was observed on the vehicle as presented for inspection.'

     ANOTHER SAMPLE TAKEN

Another sample of a deposit was taken by an officer of the  South
Australian  Police Department (SA P D) at Ceduna on  January  20,
1988.

In  discussion  with  the SAPD, on February 1,  they  advised  no
testing  of  their sample had been undertaken,  that  the  sample
collected  was  extremely small, and they were probably  to  turn
their  sample  over to W A PD in whose  jurisdictions  the  event
occurred. We are currently negotiating with both the SA PD and WA
PD for custody of this sample.

      FURTHER INVESTIGATION

We are following various leads including:

* Seeking to interview the other truck driver.

*  Seeking to document independent observation of lights  in  the
same area.

* Negotiating with the SAPD and WAPD for their samples.

*  Seeking  advice  from  those  experts  who  were  reported  as
advancing hypotheses of various kinds to explain the event,  e.g.
meteorite fall.

 *  Seeking  the  identity of the alleged driver  of  a  car  and
caravan said to be a close witness.

          IN CONCLUSION

As at March 17, 1988, it is our opinion that the entire incident,
particularly the central experience of the Knowles, is still open
to a number of interpretations.

VOLUME 6 - APRIL 1988 - NUMBER 1
       (C) COPYRIGHT 1988

UFO Research Australia Newsletter With permission from the Editor
to reprint on ParaNet Information Service.

END
PARANET FILENAME:  KNOWLES.UFO

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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Robert Mcgowan)
Subject: Re: RECENT STUDIES
Date: 7 May 91 00:50:13 GMT


 Hi again Linda,

    Have you ever read "The UFO Casebook" by Kevin Randle? Kevin Randle and
Donald Schmitt are or have written a book due out in June, I am waiting for
that one. If you're interested I can send it to you. Don and Kevin do
research for CUFOS (The Center For UFO Studies) out of Chicago.  I meet with
them periodically.
                               Well thanks again for the info Linda,
                                           Robert McGowan (Rock).
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (John Feilke)
Subject: sitchin
Date: 8 May 91 06:09:00 GMT

We recently had a set of books donated to us by a user. We think that they
are mind-blowing to say the least!!
The 12th Planet
The Stairway To Heaven
The Wars Of Gods And Men
The Lost Realms
Genesis Revisited
all by Zecharia Sitchin, this man did his homework for the last 50 years.
can be Ordered from AVON BOOKS
                    DEPT BP
                    BOX 767
                    RTE 2
                    DRESDEN, TN 38225
all books $4.95 each and $1.00 eack book postage & handling
credit cards call [phone]

Sitchin is slated to be a speaker at the upcomning MUFON symposium.

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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Linda Bird)
Subject: Re: 'UFO Abductions' show on CBS
Date: 8 May 91 05:20:00 GMT

Yep, it was announced in our papers tonight ans we 'Zonies will be
watching it.
          See ya,
                 Linda
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Linda Bird)
Subject: Re: Frank Edwards
Date: 8 May 91 05:25:00 GMT

Hi Clark,
    I do believe Jim Speiser is right--the author was Frank Edwards.
Jim is pretty <sharp> to have caught that  boo-boo.  But...Great Minds
all think alike, and we all remembered a story (from HOW LONG AGO??)
    Take care, Clark.
               Linda
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: ncar!apple.com!well!ddrasin
Subject: Meier, Stevens, Tucson and the Moon
Date: 12 May 91 21:34:47 GMT

From: well![e-mail] (Dan Drasin)


+ From: [e-mail] (Jim Delton)

+ In regard to Meiers Metal that was supposedly examained by an IBM
+ engineer - as I recall the 'engineer' was a lower level technician
+ with a penchant for overstatment.  I also seem to recall that after
+ the piece was analyzed it conveniently was lost - the 'engineer' was
+ carrying it around in his pocket and misplaced it, or some such
+ nonsense.

Jim, I almost hate to tell you this, but that 'lower level technician'
you recall was none other than the late Marcel Vogel, holder of
hundreds of high-tech patents and one of the top crystallographers in
the country. His work was central to the development of magnetic media
for computers (hard and floppy disks) and liquid crystal display
devices. In recent years he devoted himself to exploring some of the
lesser-known properties of crystals, including many that have been
poo-poohed by 'scientists' without so much as a wisp of an attempt at
honest research.

I can't verify this, but the story I heard was that Vogel made the
mistake of submitting the sample to a certain government agency for
independent analysis, and that was the last he ever saw of it.
However, the data tapes of the sample, made through his scanning electron
microscope, have been preserved. In the end, neither he nor any of his
professional colleagues who examined the actual sample could figure
out how the Meier (not 'Meiers,' please) sample could have been
created with any metallurgical processes known to them.

The Meier case probably deserves some kind of award for being the most
frequently debunked by so many people who have done so little
research into its details.



+ From: [e-mail] (Linda Bird)

+ Heck no, I did not write that article on Mars.  I only sent a copy
+ to Rpbert McGowan who had requested it.  It came out of a quarterly
+ publication from Florida called FOR THE PEOPLE.

Thanks, Linda. Do you have the address of this publication?


+ I received flyers about the conf. in Tucson.  You are right--it did
+ not receive much/any press from the Phoenix area.

The Tucson conference was absolute dynamite. What the Soviet
contingent (three speakers, including Dr. Marina Popovich, cosmonaut
and the USSR's most highly-decorated test pilot) had to say (and show)
was fairly mind-blowing. The Soviet Acad. of Sciences is years ahead
of us in open scientific inquiry into 'forbidden' areas, and
the entire spectrum of ufological matters seems to be handled much
more responsibly there than here. That's all I'll say right now -- I
could go on for hours.

The conference featured over thirty speakers from all over the world;
it was quite exhausting keeping up with it all, but definitely worth
the investment of time and money. A follow-up conference is planned
for Las Vegas in December, and another major one may be held in Moscow
next year.

What impressed me most was the variety of points of view represented
there, and the fact that these people all LISTENED TO EACH OTHER
rather than believing that anyone had the Whole Truth. In fact,
everyone I spoke to agreed that the phenomenon is much more complex
than anyone realizes and that a radically new perspective needs to be
adopted to encompass it all.


+ Why do you think Wendelle Stevens lost credibility/popularity with
+ the UFO community?  Was it because he backed up Billy Meier at one
+ time (and Billy has only a few supporters anymore?)  I'm asking
+ because I do not know; have only graduated to Kindergarten in my
+ knowledge of UFO subjects and people.

Well, Stevens only lost credibility with certain *factions* of the UFO
community, one of them being the faction represented here on ParaNet.
In general, 'the nuts-and-bolts' and "abduction" ufologists have had
little patience with contactees claiming benevolent, interdimensional,
spiritually-oriented or otherwise complex experiences, though the
latter have always been more tolerant of the former. Stevens has had a
reputation for honoring the *entire* spectrum of reports, which has
always irked those of the narrowly materialist-reductionist
persuation.

Others lost faith (i.e., didn't want to be associated with him) after
he was convicted of child-molestation a few years back -- which
occurred after he refused to lay off a certain crashed-saucer case
after repeated warnings.

As for the Meier case, Stevens, while he has generally supported
Meier, has never been a 'true believer' in Meier's entire story. He
and others have observed that a radical change came over Meier about
1980. He feels that the pre-1980 material is probably largely
legitimate, but that later the whole picture shifted quite a bit, and
that Meier is now rather a 'broken' man.

As a professional photographer I can tell you without a shadow of a
doubt that photos presented by Meier after 1980 were contrived. But
neither I nor anyone else has ever been able to find the least fault
with his mid-1970's photos. Those pictures are probably the most
extensively and repeatedly analyzed in the entire history of ufology,
and so far nobody has been able to shoot them down, either technically
or circumstantially.

Kal. K. Korff, an associate of William Moore, once wrote a debunking
report, apparently based largely on speculation, opinion, innuendo and
outright fabrication, and claimed that one of the photos showed a
string supporting a model. What the picture (a third-generation copy)
actually showed was a number of fine black lines which were either
film scratches or 'noisy' digital scan lines, one of which almost
coincided with the top of the craft and therefore looked like a
string. Close examination reveals that the 'string' actually crosses
the craft's 'antenna' and terminates in empty space.

The small models Meier did make in his workshop were for purposes of
comparison with the actual 1970s photos he presented, and were
extremely crude. Although they bear very little resemblance to what is
seen in the 'beamship' photos they have been held up as evidence of
fraud. Doesn't make much sense to me, but there you have it.


+ I wish I could write an article as well-written as the one on Mars.
+ And I would love to see more NASA photos.  Do you know how I could
+ obtain some on Mars as well as those of the moon that have stirred
+ up so much interest?

You can see more of the Mars photos in a forthcoming book, THE MARTIAN
ENIGMAS, by Dr. Mark J. Carlotto, due out this fall. You might also
check out Richard Hoagland's agonizingly detailed THE MONUMENTS OF
MARS which is available widely, but is several years out of date (a
new edition is due out later this year).

There are a few books about the moon that you might find interesting.
Just remember that the more suppressed and unpopular a subject, the
less often its researchers will tend to produce literary or scientific
masterpieces. With that firmly in mind, check out

MOONGATE: SUPPRESSED FINDINGS OF THE U.S. SPACE PROGRAM, by William L.
Brian II. (Future Science Research Publishng Co., PO Box 06392,
Portland, OR 97206)

and

UFOS AND THE COMPLETE EVIDENCE FROM SPACE, by Daniel Ross. (Pintado
Publishing, PO Box 3033, Walnut Creek, CA 94508).


Good luck!


Dan Drasin
[e-mail]%Apple.Com




********To have your comments in the next issue, send electronic mail to********
                      'infopara' at the following address:

UUCP  {ncar,isis,boulder}!scicom!infopara
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******************The**End**of**Info-ParaNet**Newsletter************************


                Info-ParaNet Newsletters   Volume I  Number 403

                            Wednesday, May 15th 1991

Today's Topics:

                                     (none)
                        10 bicyclists vanish in fog cloud
                                      oops
                        Dan Quayle and Alternative Three
                                Re: Frank Edwards
                         TV shows on Paranormal subjects
                                 Re: WALTER.SAL
                                Internet Mailings
                               Re: RECENT STUDIES
                                Re: Frank Edwards
                                Re: ALIEN ALLOYS
                                   Re: (NONE)
                                Re: FRANK EDWARDS
                                   WALTER.SAL
                                 Re: WALTER.SAL
                                 Re: WALTER.SAL
                                  CROP CIRCLES
                     Zen Faulkes Article on ET Intelligence
                                Numerical Erratum

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: ecn.purdue.edu!lush
Subject: (none)
Date: 13 May 91 05:35:35 GMT

From: [e-mail] (Gregory B Lush)


Subject:  10 bicyclists vanish in fog cloud


The following is from a Canadian tabloid of sorts.  It is called the
News.  It isn't like American tabloids in that it doesn't print stories
about Hollywood lust-affairs, I guess it just likes 'different' stories.

===>  BEGIN QUOTING  <===

News  May 14, 1991

BIZARRE ENDING TO TEENS' RIDE FOR CHARITY

10 BICYCLISTS VANISH IN FOG CLOUD!

Ten teenage bicyclists on a charity fund-raising ride through the
countryside pedaled into a 150-foot fog bank - and vanished of the face
of the earth!

'They just rode into the thcik fog and never rode out,' said bewildered
witness Roland Saugey.

'There were no screams, no crashes, no anything.  It was like something
out of the Devil's Triangle.

'The cops have searched for a mongh now and they haven't found
a trace of them - not one single clue.

The flabbergasted shool-teacher was one of eight adult vounteers assigned
to accompany the teens on their trek through the rolling hills outside
Marseilles, France.

'There wer about 80 kids on the trip altogether and they'd all signed
up pledges for AIDS research,' rattled Roland told a reporter.

'They rode off in groups of 10 and I followed the first bunch in my car,
just in case anybody ran into trouble.  There were five boys and five
girls, and they were all looking forward to a nice long bike ride in the
country.'

But two hours out, the unsuspecting schoolkids rounded a curve, rode
into a fog bank - and disappeared forever.

'I saw them go into the fog ahead of me, and I drove in about 15 seconds
later,' Roland recalled.  'I turned on my lights because it was thick as
pea soup in there,, and when I came out I expected to see the youngsters
up ahead of me, pedaling away.

'But there were 10 or 15 people picking up bottles along the road and they
told us the kids never came out of the fog.

'The stuff lifted a little later, but we never found a trace of those kids
or their bicycles.  It was like the earth just opened up and swallowed
them alive.'

And the cops are just as bamboozled as anybody else.

'There's no sign of foul play - there's no sign of anything,' said
dumbfounded detective Claude Bletner.

'We have searched every square inch of ground for miles around and there's
no indication any of those kids has ever been there.

'If it was one or two teenagers, you'd say maybe they ran away or were
abducted.  But 10 able-bodied teenagers on bicycles, with a man in a car
right behind them - there's just no way.

'The other day, somebody said a spaceship swooped down and got them.
And the scary thing was, nobody laughed.


===>  END OF ARTICLE  <===

Must have been a meteorite.

Greg ([e-mail])



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: ecn.purdue.edu!lush
Subject: oops
Date: 13 May 91 15:44:24 GMT

From: [e-mail] (Gregory B Lush)


I just submitted a post in which I put in the wrong date
for the article I typed in.  I'll have to check on the
proper date as that was what was given to me.

Greg ([e-mail])


--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: shemtaia.weeg.uiowa.edu!jrblack
Subject: Dan Quayle and Alternative Three
Date: 13 May 91 15:46:17 GMT

From: James Roger Black <[e-mail]>

Vice President Dan Quayle, as one of the duties of his office, is
titular head of the U.S. space program.  Here is what he had to say
recently about Mars:

  We have seen pictures where there are canals, we believe, and water.
  If there is water, that means there is oxygen.  If oxygen, that means
  we can breathe.

Of course, this was in the same statement where he declared that 'Mars
is essentially in the same orbit' as earth--a revelation about orbital
mechanics that had somehow escaped the astronomers until now.
Consequently, while it is tempting to believe that Danny has been
briefed on Alternative Three, it is much more likely that he picked up
his information from a late-night viewing of 'Robinson Crusoe on
Mars'.


--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Clark Matthews)
Subject: Re: Frank Edwards
Date: 8 May 91 09:45:00 GMT


 >     I do believe Jim Speiser is right--the author was Frank
 > Edwards.  Jim is pretty <sharp> to have caught that  boo-
 > boo.  But...Great Minds all think alike, and we all
 > remembered a story (from HOW LONG AGO??)


Yes, but sometimes I think it's my personal curse to have a mind
like flypaper.  Just kidding, wouldn't have it any other way :-)

Best,
  Clark


--
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: hpvclmd.vcd.hp.com!miked
Subject: TV shows on Paranormal subjects
Date: 13 May 91 19:34:55 GMT

From: Mike Dobbs <[e-mail]>

This week the networks are really loaded with shows dealing with the
paranormal. So... Get your VCRs ready.

Wednesday night on CBS (opposite of Unsolved Mysteries) at 8pm we have
'Haunted Lives: True Ghost Stories' - hosted by Leonard Nimoy.

Thursday night on ABC at 9pm, 'Miracles and Other Mysteries' - Four
unexplained events from San Diego, Portland (OR), Vietnam, and
California are re-enacted.

Friday night on CBS at 8pm, 'Visitors From the Unknown: UFO
Abductions' - James Earl Jones narrates re-enactment of several
documented encounters with extraterrestials.

--------
  Mike Dobbs        /    Internet: [e-mail]


--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Jim Speiser)
Subject: Re: WALTER.SAL
Date: 9 May 91 17:07:00 GMT


 > I felt it necessary to present this material even though I don't agree.
 > The last line says critics ignore the hundreds of other witnesses who
 > report seeing the UFO. I still wonder why only one person can time after
 > time get photos of the UFO while others get nothing? Did hundreds of
 > others reports seeing the same UFO? Oh well in the interest of fairness
 > and information (plus I didn't see it posted before) I had to send this
 > out.

A million thanks, Pete. Fairness is what we're about.

Jim

--
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Subject: Internet Mailings
Date: 9 May 91 23:47:00 GMT


 > Does anyone know why the Internet feed of Paranet UFO messages hasn't
 > sent anything for about a week?

The feed has been operating correctly.  The traffic coming back has been slow.

Mike

--
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Linda Bird)
Subject: Re: RECENT STUDIES
Date: 9 May 91 06:05:00 GMT

Hi Robert,
   You bet I read The UFO Casebook (last summer).   It was a terrific
intro to the subject.  If you liked this book, you me1ight like The
UFO Conspiracy: The first 40 Years   by Jenny Randles.  No relation!
She's British, so has a slightly different slant to the English
language than what we speak (American) but it is also very interesting
too!
   I'm currently reading The October Scenario bu Capt. Kevin Randle.
I'm getting all these "Randles"  mixed up!
    Happy reading, and thanks for the offer!
    See ya,
             Linda
--
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Linda Bird)
Subject: Re: Frank Edwards
Date: 9 May 91 06:09:00 GMT

Hi Clark,
   To quote:  I sometimes think my mind is like flypaper...
   Well, I sometimes think my mind is an "infinite sink" where all the
good stuff "sinks" to the bottom! :-)
   Good to chat with you again,
         Linda
--
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Pete Porro)
Subject: Re: ALIEN ALLOYS
Date: 7 May 91 21:55:18 GMT

Meteors can be loaded with magnesium, especially the bright green ones that
fly slower and for longer periods of time. Usually they don't leave anything
to research since they completely burn up crossing the atmosphere.
--
Pete Porro - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Pete Porro)
Subject: Re: (NONE)
Date: 7 May 91 21:58:37 GMT

Ah the Bentwaters Incident! That one I have seen before. Thanks for
improving my mind. <HNIC>
--
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UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Pete Porro)
Subject: Re: FRANK EDWARDS
Date: 7 May 91 22:01:43 GMT

Wasn't it Bloom County or was that Dogpatch TN? I'll leave this one alone
it's way out of my state.
--
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UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Pete Porro)
Subject: WALTER.SAL
Date: 7 May 91 22:12:50 GMT

The following represents a statement provided by Mr. Ed
Walters of Gulf Breeze, Florida and received on February
23, 1991.  The original document contained various phrases emphasized by
underlining, bold print or
capitalizations.  In the reproduction below, all emphasized
wording was CAPITALIZED.
--------------------------------------------------------------


A REVIEW OF STATEMENTS AND CONCLUSIONS PRESENTED
TO THE MEDIA BY REX AND CAROL SALISBERRY
(and recently reprinted on CompuServe)



ABSTRACT:

The nine page media release by Rex and Carol
Salisberry is based on factual omissions and partial quotes.


***********************************************************

1)  With a copy of the Dektor Counterintelligence lie detector
test results in hand, THE SALISBERRYS ONLY QUOTED PART OF
THE ANALYSIS.  The balance of the lie detector report
concludes:

     "Ed's interview as such only shows one area that shows a
     reaction which indicates something is wrong with what he
     said and that is where he (Ed) took the photographs to the
     newspaper and told the person (Mr. Cook) that he (Ed) was
     only the errand boy.   The rest of the interview, for what
     its worth from the stand point of being able to say he (Ed
     Walters) is being truthful about what he saw and what he
     did, DOES NOT SHOW ANY REACTIONS TO CAUSE THIS
     EXAMINER TO DOUBT HIS ANSWERS, ......."

2)  On February 10,  Charles Flannigan asked Ed Walters to take
a polygraph test.  On February 18 Ed was interviewed and
tested.  During the interview Ed supplied the names of Charles
Flannigan and Don Ware to the examiner so specific MUFON
questions could be asked.  THE EXAMINER CONSULTED DIRECTLY
WITH MUFON.  Ed passed the polygraph and one week later
Ed Walters was tested again and once again passed.

     The Salisberry's account of the above February 18, 1988
polygraph test by Harvy McLauglin is a distortion.  They imply
that MUFON was not involved in the testing and only quote a
piece of the examiners conclusion.  The balance of the lie
detector report ignored by Salisberry concludes:

    "MR. WALTERS TRULY BELIEVES THAT THE PHOTOGRAPHS
    AND PERSONAL SIGHTINGS HE HAS DESCRIBED ARE TRUE
    AND FACTUAL TO THE BEST OF HIS ABILITY."

3)  On June 19 Ed Walters was Psychological Stress tested
(lie detector) by Ronald Lauland of New Orleans, a leading
expert in the Southeast.

     THE SALISBERRYS QUOTED THE FOLLOWING PARTIAL
PHRASE FROM MR. LAULAND'S STATEMENT,  "......and the
questions were reworded for clarification....."

     BASED ON THAT PARTIAL PHRASE, the Salisberrys
concluded that, "This gave Walters the opportunity to
carefully word the questions so that he could answer truthfully
without providing any meaningful results."

     This distortion of the facts by the Salisberrys is easily
checked and confirmed that I did not
word or reword the questions.  After a long interview, Mr.
Lauland told me that one test is all that was necessary for
him to determine my truthfulness.  Based on the interview,
Mr. Lauland (not Ed) worded the questions to demand clear
cut affirmative answers most suitable to Stress Evaluation.

     THE SALISBERRYS DID NOT TALK TO MR. LAULAND AND
AS WITH THE OTHER LIE DETECTOR TEST RESULTS, THEY
CHOSE TO OMIT MR. LAULAND'S CONCLUSION WHICH IS:

BASED ON THE RESULTS OF THE TEST, IT IS MY PROFESSIONAL
OPINION THAT AS A CERTIFIED INSTRUCTOR IN THE FIELD
OF PSYCHOLOGICAL STRESS EVALUATION (VOICE LIE
DETECTION),  AS A COURT RECOGNIZED EXPERT IN THIS
FIELD AND AS A LICENSED ANALYST BY THE STATE OF
LOUISIANA, THAT YOU (ED WALTERS) WERE BEING TRUTHFUL
IN ANSWERING ALL OF THE RELATIVE QUESTIONS.

4)  The Salisberrys have concluded that the reflection in
(the road shot) photograph #19 is "impossible".  They
present as evidence a "simple demonstration" with a circle
of white paper 7 inches in diameter placed 185 inches away
on a flat table.  They then conclude that the 7 inch circle
viewed from 5 inches altitude represents the shape
of the reflection that should be seen in Ed's photo #19 if the
photo is valid.

     A.   The Salisberrys ignored the pentagon shape that is
clearly seen in the bottom of the UFO in photo #11 and the
fact that light passing through a pentagon can make an angular reflection.

     B.   The Salisberrys "7 inch circle of paper" experiment
does not re-create the conditions at the road site (slope of
the road, etc.) and therefore proves nothing.

     C.   Whereas, on Oct. 30, 1990, eight test photos were taken
on Soundside Drive at the exact location of photo #19.  At the
same time of day and with the same camera this re-enactment
was made using a 100,000 candle power light shining on
the road 185 feet down the road from the camera. THE TEST
PHOTOS SHOW DISTINCT ANGULAR REFLECTIONS ON THE
GRAY/WHITE GRAVEL ROAD SURFACE VERY MUCH LIKE THE
REFLECTION IN PHOTOGRAPH 19.

5)  The Salisberrys describe how several UNNAMED PHYSICISTS
have validated their conclusion about the reflection being
impossible.

     We discovered the identity of one of the unnamed physcists
and learned that he was told to "ASSUME ONLY CYLINDRICAL
SYMMETRY OF LIGHT EMISSIONS WITH RESPECT TO THE
OBJECT AXES OF SYMMETRY."  THIS MEANS THAT HE WAS
TOLD BY SALISBERRY TO ONLY CONSIDER THAT THE LIGHT
SOURCE WAS A CIRCLE.  The physicist was given no
information about the pentagon shape structure within the
bottom of the UFO, no information about the irregular road
top with it's gray/white rock surface embedded in the
asphalt and no information that the UFO may have been
farther down the road. (Salisberrys say that the road is
"black top" with no mention of it's gray/white surface.)

     This unnamed physicist said that he has now talked to
Dr. Maccabee and agrees that there are many other considerations
that could cause such a reflection.  Plus he said that he was
very upset at the release of his preliminary work to the
media.  "This is not science, and I want nothing to do with
it," he said.

6)  The Salisberrys boldly use Dr. Robert Nathan's name as
if he agrees with them.  But when Dr. Maccabee consulted
with Dr. Nathan, he (Dr. Nathan) denied having endorsed
the simplistic "7 inch paper circle on a flat table" theory
and flatly stated that he had cautioned Salisberry to
remember that light can do strange things.

7)  The Salisberrys said,  "Arguments may be advanced that
a non uniform illumination might be able to produce the
reflections as shown in photo 19.   The experienced analysts,
mentioned before, (I assume this to be one of the unnamed
people and not Dr. Nathan) assure us that such non uniform
illumination should still produce an elliptical pattern for
the reflection."

     WHAT SALISBERRY IS SAYING HERE IS THAT IF A LIGHT
SHINES THROUGH AN ANGULAR SHAPE THEN THE REFLECTION
WILL BE ELLIPTICAL.  A very bold statement but very wrong!
I tested the statement and when I shined a flashlight through
a star shaped hole cut into a piece of cardboard, I got a
star shape reflection and NOT an elliptical shape.

8)   The Salisberrys say that on March 17, (Photo 36 L & R), that
"Frances did not emerge from the bushes at the same time
as Mr. Walters and hence had ample time to have hidden
away the model and other paraphernalia involved."  THIS IS A
FALSE STATEMENT.  THE WITNESSES CONFIRM UNANIMOUSLY
THAT FRANCES WAS BEHIND ED WITHIN SECONDS (five or ten
seconds at the most).  Eight people, including Frances, stood
in front of Ed's truck headlights to watch the film develop.

<continued next message>
--
Pete Porro - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]



--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Pete Porro)
Subject: Re: WALTER.SAL
Date: 7 May 91 22:17:25 GMT

9)  The Salisberrys say (in ref. to March 17, photos 36 L & R),
that "None of the witnesses recorded the numbers!" The
Salisberrys attribute this statement to Charles Flannigan.  It
is a reference to the numbers on the back of the film.  CHARLES
FLANNIGAN SAID "IT IS A COMPLETELY FALSE AND MISLEADING
STATEMENT."

     As re-affirmed by the witnesses, the film packs were
opened by others and the boxes were saved.  Each box has
a serial number.  The serial number on the back of the film
matches the serial number on its box.  The test photos taken
before the UFO sighting have the same serial numbers as the
UFO photos and the test photos taken after the UFO sighting
have the same serial numbers as the UFO photos and all of
the above have the same serial numbers as the box they came
from.

10)  The Salisberrys have repeated a deception first distributed
by P. Klass in his effort to prove that the Thomas house plan
design is not the plan that is seen in the UFO model.  The
living area and the slab area is clearly noted in the Model to
be 1740 and 2393.  Great efforts were made by local officials
to find a house plan to match this square footage.  THE ONLY
PLAN WITH THE SAME EXACT AREAS IS THE THOMAS PLAN
WHICH WAS DESIGNED ON SEPT. 6, 1989, ALMOST TWO
YEARS AFTER I TOOK THE UFO PHOTOGRAPHS IN 1987.

     P. Klass selectively photocopied a tiny piece of the Thomas
plan that said "sinergy" and left out the many other design
and planning notes that show up on the plan.  Sinergy was
was an option that the Thomases were considering, as were
the many other items so noted on the Thomas plan.  My base
(standard) plan is always for a brick house with options being
added as required by the buyer.

     The Salisberrys are also promoting another P. Klass deception
that portrays bits and pieces of numbers to be street address
numbers rather than the more obvious dimensional descriptions
on the plan.  Also, the Thomas plan faced Shoreline Drive and
would have had a Shoreline Drive address.

11)  The Salisberrys say that "photos 12 and 14 bear a marked
resemblance to the model found in the Menzer's attic."

     THE ABOVE SALISBERRY STATEMENT IS FALSE.  Of all the
photos, the UFO in photo 12 has a unique double bottom
image and clearly has a second, lower, level of "portholes."
Also photo 14 captures this second, lower, level of "portholes."
The model has more "portholes" than any of the Walters'
photos and it has no lower level of "portholes."

12)  Ed Walters is on record describing the "horizontal"
lines during an interview in December 1988.  He said,
"There were two lines running around the main body. One
line was above the "portholes" and one below the
"portholes."  The portholes seemed to slide on the
horizontal lines as if they were headers and sills."

13)  THE SALISBERRYS FALSELY SAY THAT IN FEBRUARY 1988
ED AND FRANCES WERE ACTIVELY SEEKING PUBLICATION OF A
BOOK.

     The details of how and when Ed and Frances agreed to write
the book THE GULF BREEZE SIGHTINGS is very clear.  As the
news about the UFO sightings began to spread, many editors,
writers, and publishers began to pursue the rights to the
UFO photos.  MUFON investigators talked with one New York
editor who flew to Gulf Breeze and made Frances and me
an offer.  we refused all offers from these writers, editors
and publishers.  Only after a year and a half of the continued
twisting of the facts by a few critics did we agree to go
public and tell our personal story.


A personal comment:

      I normally do not take the time to read "reports" written
by critics because I find it astounding how they continue
to try to cover-up and distort the details of the local UFO
sightings.  The above examples of partial quotes and
made-up "facts" are  normal procedure in their efforts
to "muddy the water" for those unfamiliar with the
on-going local UFO sightings.

     The Gulf Breeze sightings continue as scores of witnesses
gather to photograph and video tape the UFOs that frequent
the skys over Gulf Breeze.  From a distance, people can
read the motivated "reports" from critics and believe
what they want, but here in Gulf Breeze seeing is believing.

     Isn't it curious how hard the critics try to convince others
that what I saw and photographed was a hoax while
ignoring the hundreds of other witnesses who report seeing
the UFO?  May God bless and guide us all (even the UFO
critics).

(signature)
Ed Walters
--
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Pete Porro)
Subject: Re: WALTER.SAL
Date: 7 May 91 22:21:58 GMT

I felt it necessary to present this material even though I don't agree. The
last line says critics ignore the hundreds of other witnesses who report
seeing the UFO. I still wonder why only one person can time after time get
photos of the UFO while others get nothing? Did hundreds of others reports
seeing the same UFO? Oh well in the interest of fairness and information
(plus I didn't see it posted before) I had to send this out.
--
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UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: [e-mail] (Sheldon Wernikoff)
Subject: CROP CIRCLES
Date: 9 May 91 13:05:00 GMT




         THE ARTIFICIAL PRODUCTION OF PLASMA-VORTEX QUINTUPLET CIRCLES

                                 by

                         Sheldon L. Wernikoff


     An important advance in experimental research on the circles effect has
resulted from observations of the motion of vortices in a gas-filled
chamber. The experiments concern the production of quintuplet circle sets by
the impact of plasma vortices upon an anode.

     The experiments are conducted using Tesla-generated high voltage, low
frequency currents in an inert mixture of neon and argon gas. At certain
frequencies around 150 KHZ, plasma vortices form. The vortices are rendered
luminous by the excitation of the neon-argon mixture. The anode is spherical
in shape, approximately 40mm in diameter, and is fabricated of carbon-steel
alloy sheathed in a ceramic insulating capsule.

     The vortices form spontaneously and glow brightly during their approach
to the anode. Upon striking it each vortex gives rise to a regular set of
five circles, the four satellite circles being located at equal distances in
the four right angle directions from the primary circle. The experiment has
been repeated many times. The first color photographs taken in October 1990
using ASA 3200 film suggest that the satellite circles are created at the
moment of impact by the ejection of four subsidiary vortices from the
primary one, but the exact sequence will not be known until the process has
been filmed by a high speed video camera. Good photographs have subsequently
been taken in monochrome at F1.2, 1/250, ASA 3200 pushed to ASA 12500.

     This work helps to confirm the general ionized vortex theories
initiated by Dr. G. Terence Meaden for crop circle formation by natural
vortex processes in the atmosphere, in combination with the theory of George
Bathurst for quintuplet formation by satellite vortex ejection. Next, it is
hoped to film the life cycle of the vortices using video film.


     (This article and photographs will be published in June 1991, in a
post-conference book of papers entitled "Circles from the    Sky". I welcome
correspondence from interested parties)


 Sheldon L. Wernikoff
 9200 Niles Center Rd #2C
 Skokie, IL 60076-1548 U.S.A.
 TEL: [phone]
 FAX: [phone]

--
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--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: ASTRO.dnet.ge.com!CARR
Subject: Zen Faulkes Article on ET Intelligence
Date: 14 May 91 05:37:15 GMT

From: Paul Carr <[e-mail]>

My comments on 'Getting Smart About Getting Smarts,' by Zen Faulkes:


In an article in the Spring 1991 issue of 'Skeptical Inquirer,'
Zen Faulkes (Dept. of Biology, Univ. of Victoria, B.C.) concludes
that the probability of intelligent life evolving on a planet which
is capable of supporting a biosphere is about 1E-9 (one in one hundred
billion).  He contrasts this with the usual astronomer's assumption
that the fraction is closer to one, stating that some estimates are
even greater than (more than one intelligent species in the same
biosphere).

The perplexing problem that I have with this article is Faulke's
'derivation' of his 1E-9 fraction.  It is his calculation of the
reciprocal of the number of species that have ever existed,
admittedly approximate.  That is, of all the species of protozoa,
plankton, beetles, butterflies, fish, fowl, and all other fauna
that have ever existed, only one is, he judges,
'intelligent'(some people would say that the some Cetaceans
are also intelligent, and this _is_ germane, in my view).
All life, all adaptations, 'just happen,'
and so no one species or type of adaptation surviving is no higher
than any other.  Not all ecological niches are fully exploited.
He points to S. Gould's book, WONDERFUL LIFE.
The Cambrian fossils found in the Burgess Shales are evidence that the
evolution of intelligence is not the end result of a trend - the
species that survived in the shale did so just by luck, not because
they were better adapted (I am interested in how
we can know how much better adapted one species was than another to
survive a mass extinction about 500 million years ago).

Therefore, we humans are a 1 in one hundred billion longshot, claims
Faulkes.  In fact, he goes further to claim that our particular
adaptation - intelligence - is no more likely than this - no more
likely than the development of woodpecking or a sea otter using
a stone to open mussels.  I must admit I don't follow this.

First, we are ignoring the key factor of _awareness_. The woodpecker,
for example isn't aware that she's exploiting an ecological niche, or
that her behavior is contributing to the success of her species.  The
early men however, apparently were aware of whether their behavior was
useful for survival and adjusted it accordingly.  Intelligence isn't
one adaptation, but countless adaptations.  Intelligence doesn't exploit
one ecological niche, but many - permitting a single species to survive
in virtually every land habitat on earth, and even to create its own
habitats in space and under the ocean.

I would say that the sample space is smaller but is significant -
we know of exactly one biosphere, and that biosphere has evolved at least
one species of intelligent life.  Some reasonable people think that
this biosphere has given rise to two or more intelligent species, but let's
discount that for the sake of argument.  The best estimate we then have of
the probability of an intelligent species evolving is then 1.0 - the
'astronomer's' estimate.  Admittedly, since that species is the
species of the estimator, as we discover more biospheres, that estimate
could decrease, but by nine orders of magnitude?  My WAG on the order of
magnitude is 1E-1, but I could believe as low as 1E-4, because our planet
has such a nice, benign biosphere and has probably been lucky on the
number of mass extinctions (five, I think).

So, Faulkes' estimate of 1E-9 for the fifth factor in Drake's formula
can't be the last word for me.  I need more evidence that the logical
connection is there.  Does anyone see Faulkes' argument more clearly than
I do?


---Paul Carr
Internet: [e-mail]




--------------------------------------------------------------------


From: ASTRO.dnet.ge.com!CARR
Subject: Numerical Erratum
Date: 14 May 91 13:50:53 GMT

From: Paul Carr <[e-mail]>

In my earlier message on Zen Faulkes' article in SE, I erroneously stated
that 1E-9 is one in one hundred billion.  Yikes!  1E-9 is,of course,
one in ONE billion.  However, Faulkes considers this to be a generous
estimate.




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